A Practical Shortsword Method

This is a discussion on A Practical Shortsword Method within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I do agree that getting caught carrying a "short sword" will not look good and is an excellent way to get yourself painted as a ...

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Thread: A Practical Shortsword Method

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    I do agree that getting caught carrying a "short sword" will not look good and is an excellent way to get yourself painted as a nut. At the same time it is not uncommon for me to have a sword or two in the trunk of my car. Of course they are on top of a bag that contains my sport fencing weapons and gear so I can always claim athlete/collector.

    I do not though depend on a sword for defense. There are times where I have been places that a firearm was unlawful to have in my vehicle. In those cases I have found that having a multi-putpose utility blade that serves as knife, shovell and even hammer on occasion is better than nothing. For me that is my "beater" Kuhkri. It is ugly and has rust spots but fits the bill nicely.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Just to add, knife, sword or gun I still have a container of OC on me a my first line of defense/escape.

  4. #18
    Member Array Lawrence Keeney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musketeer View Post
    Just to add, knife, sword or gun I still have a container of OC on me a my first line of defense/escape.
    That is only good sense on your part sir...the disparity of force principle.

    "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong." Denny Crane:

  5. #19
    Ex Member Array Phil Elmore's Avatar
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    That's exactly it -- there are no members of this forum who would say, I'd hope, that they prefer and carry to the exclusion of other weapons blades of this particular length and legal status. It is simply an option, and the article is offered as a how-to for this alternative, irrespective of advocacy.

  6. #20
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Elmore View Post
    My own blade training is primarily Chinese and Filipino, focusing on blades of all lengths (particularly those of shorter and machete lengths), rather than focused on traditional Japanese full-sized sword methods. Perhaps there is the source of the disconnect.
    A friend of mine in FL travels to Israel twice a year to train the IDF guys in Filipino knife fighting techniques. After training with him, I agree that such a practicioner is a VERY deadly opponent. However, it usually involves a much shorter blade than that of a sword.



    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Elmore View Post
    Again, this article does NOT advocate the short sword OVER another method. It offers it as ONE alternative among the implied many.

    Your base hypothesis was that a sword is a viable alternative in a place in which it is not legal to possess/carry a handgun. Can you name any jurisdiction in the US where it is illegal to carry a gun, but legal to carry a concealed sword?



    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Elmore View Post
    This is simply not true, at least when offered as a generalization. A cane is certainly an extremely effective weapon (one of the many we cover at The Martialist, in fact), as is a short staff or a long staff (we covered the staff, too). To say that reach alone will permit you to defeat someone armed with a long blade is to over-generalize and assume too much, however.

    If I had a Jo in my hand (as in a "walking stick"), and an opponent reached inside his clothing for the handle of a sword, I guarantee you that I could put his lights out before the blade was halfway out of the scabbard. It is not a matter of reach, it IS a matter speed. As in, "the speed of a stick in the hand beats a sword in the shorts" The only possible exception to this would be if my opponent spent multiple years training with a blade (as in Iado), and even that would be a 50/50 proposition at best.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Elmore View Post
    You could just as easily say, "A guy with a cane will thump you before you can draw a handgun from concealment." Any weapon that must be drawn from concealment before it can be used can be jammed or otherwise intercepted by someone, especially if that someone has a tool of longer reach and is within (his) range.
    You are absolutely correct. Hence the emphasis I always place upon GOOD tactical training.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Elmore View Post
    At any rate, I respect your opinion and your position, though I argue that you're forcing my original piece into a context for which it was not intended.
    Again, I will reiterate that you put forth the proposition that a concealed sword was a legal alternative to a concealed handgun. I am aware of no place in the US in which it would be legal to carry a concealed sword, and not legal to do the same with a handgun. In my book (with proper training) gun trumps blade. So, the entire base hypothesis is flawed. I mean you no disrespect - I just don't want someone who is inexperienced to get themselves seriously injured, killed or locked up.
    Last edited by rstickle; February 2nd, 2007 at 04:15 PM.

  7. #21
    Ex Member Array Phil Elmore's Avatar
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    A friend of mine in FL travels to Israel twice a year to train the IDF guys in Filipino knife fighting techniques. After training with him, I agree that such a practicioner is a VERY deadly opponent. However, it usually involves a much shorter blade than that of a sword.
    This is not correct. FMA regularly involves the use of blades up to and including machete length.



    Your base hypothesis was that a sword is a viable alternative in a place in which it is not legal to possess/carry a handgun. Can you name any jurisdiction in the US where it is illegal to carry a gun, but legal to carry a concealed sword?
    Actually, what I said was...

    As gun laws become more strict, those of us in North America and particularly self-defense-minded citizens abroad turn to “alternative” weapons in the search to improve our odds of defending against a violent attack. Many choose blades of varying size to fill this need, and for good reason.
    I also said that it was physically possible to conceal a blade of such length. I did not say I considered it a legal alternative; by "viable option" I am speaking of physical possibility. In all cases I assume the reader is a grown-up and thus fully capable of determining what he should or should not do legally. I also value my life more than I value my government's increasingly invasive protections of me for my own good, and thus I value having the knowledge necessary to utilize such implements in those hypothetical scenarios in which I have no better or more preferable choice.

    I have stated repeatedly that I am not engaged in advocacy of this over other weapons -- I am merely pointing out, quite rightly, that it is physically viable. The law is an ass and an idiot, to paraphrase; each reader must therefore educate himself and choose accordingly.

    If I had a Jo in my hand (as in a "walking stick"), and an opponent reached inside his clothing for the handle of a sword, I guarantee you that I could put his lights out before the blade was halfway out of the scabbard.
    If you create hypothetical scenarios in which you and your opponent act at the same time, of course the person whose weapon is already deployed will always win. I can just as easily create a hypothetical scenario in which I, with a cane, can stop you, with a concealed handgun, from drawing it. This is meaningless. You are also basing your objections on the notion of a "concealed sword," which was not (and never has been) the point of this article.

    It is not a matter of reach, it IS a matter speed.
    No one said it was a function of reach alone; we're talking about initiative. Your hypothetical scenario presumes equal initiative, but in real life, things rarely work out that way.

    As in, "the speed of a stick in the hand beats a sword in the shorts"
    Yes, I already address this -- a stick in the hand beats a gun in the waistband, too. You can't presume equal initiative; you're creating the type of "tactical" scenario that exists only in the airless, frictionless universe of high school physics problems.

    The only possible exception to this would be if my opponent spent multiple years training with a blade (as in Iado), and even that would be a 50/50 proposition at best.
    This is not correct. It does not take multiple years of training to become proficient with a blade of any size. It does take training, but this need not take the implied decades. (I think this is a perspective born of training in traditional Japanese blade arts.)

    You are absolutely correct. Hence the emphasis I always place upon GOOD tactical training.
    At least in that we have common ground; I advocate GOOD training as well. The difference is that I don't believe in limiting my options. Legality is one thing; physical possibility is another. I believe in learning as many of the latter as possible and then making my choices within the former accordingly.

    Again, I will reiterate that you put forth the proposition that a concealed sword was a legal alternative to a concealed handgun.
    No, I didn't. If you could quote for me where I said that, I will gladly correct myself, as it was never my intention to say any such thing with regard to legality.

    I am aware of no place in the US in which it would be legal to carry a concealed sword, and not legal to do the same with a handgun.
    I am aware of no such place either, nor did I say that there was. I am aware of many places where concerned citizens may obtain blades more easily than guns, however.

    In my book (with proper training) gun trumps blade.
    That's true in most cases. I've never said otherwise.

    So, the entire base hypothesis is flawed.
    No, the "base hypothesis" as you have interpreted it is flawed. I think I've been pretty clear in what the base hypothesis is as I intend it, which is different.

    I mean you no disrespect - I just don't want someone who is inexperienced to get themselves seriously injured, killed or locked up.
    Nor do I. I simply don't believe those reading this are children who need my parenting; I think they're smart enough to make their own legal choices and behave as responsible citizens. I also have not, at any time, said that carrying a sword was legal. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    Just to reiterate, let's look at the first paragraph of my original article:

    As gun laws become more strict, those of us in North America and particularly self-defense-minded citizens abroad turn to “alternative” weapons in the search to improve our odds of defending against a violent attack. Many choose blades of varying size to fill this need, and for good reason. The knife is a powerful and portable implement for multiplying force. Some carry very small knives, while others carry much larger blades. At some point, however, those blades cease to be knives and become swords.
    I can understand, in retrospect, how that paragraph could be taken to imply that carrying a blade "of varying size" is a 'legal' alternative, but that's not correct, nor is it actually stated. For your sake, Gary, I will gladly say for the record that obviously you must check your local laws, determine with what legal risk you are willing to live, and act accordingly. For the sake of the argument, then, we can say that the information contained in this article is academic in nature. It is also quite perfectly physically viable. I don't carry a sword; I carry a gun. This doesn't mean I don't want to know how to use that sword as a hedge towards future scenarios, both physical and legal, that I cannot predict.

    There comes a time when our desire to be "right" far surpasses the utility of the information over which we started arguing in the first place. Please don't make more of this article than it is.
    Last edited by Phil Elmore; February 2nd, 2007 at 04:35 PM.

  8. #22
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Elmore View Post

    Actually, what I said was...



    I also said that it was physically possible to conceal a blade of such length. I did not say I considered it a legal alternative; by "viable option" I am speaking of physical possibility. In all cases I assume the reader is a grown-up and thus fully capable of determining what he should or should not do legally. The law is an ass and an idiot, to paraphrase; each reader must therefore educate himself and choose accordingly.

    Sir, now a line has been crossed. We do not allow ANY discussion of illegal activities and that is non-negotiable. CombatCarry exists to prommote the LEGAL exercise of Second Amendment rights, in an ethical manner and in full compliance with all Federal, State and Local laws. This thread is now being closed.

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