Question for LEO on the forum, stun guns and sprays

Question for LEO on the forum, stun guns and sprays

This is a discussion on Question for LEO on the forum, stun guns and sprays within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have a niece upper 20's works healthcare at night. She isn't interested in a gun for carry (yet, I'm working on it) but is ...

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Thread: Question for LEO on the forum, stun guns and sprays

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    Senior Member Array LeftofMars's Avatar
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    Question for LEO on the forum, stun guns and sprays

    I have a niece upper 20's works healthcare at night. She isn't interested in a gun for carry (yet, I'm working on it) but is open to stun guns or mace/pepper spray, (yeah I know, baby steps, better than a rock). I'm directing this to LEO's because I figure if you're going with less lethal you need to be sure what you have works. What does? I'd like brands and models, only items available to us non LEO types.


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    BBI
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    Pepper spray is a bad choice. It isn't instantly effective and if someone gets sprayed and then grabs you, its getting on you as well. Now you're both affected. The way women carry it is also difficult to access quickly and the stream versions can be hard to get a hit with. I used to assist in a woman's self defense class back in the early 2000's. Trust me, I'm not fast. I would let the women day 1 mace me if they could using a 7 yard drill (both stationary, her with the spray in her hand but not pulled out of the purse if that's how it was carried or down at her side if on a keychain, then I charge you with no warning.) Maybe 1/5 got a hit anywhere near my face. Most missed or got me on the torso. The ones who "got away" simply outran me when they had the presence of mind to just sprint away. Did I mention I'm not fast? Cops don't use pepper spray on attackers, they use it on non-compliant suspects or to move people. It's just too slow to take affect in many cases.

    I don't have much experience with stun guns beyond the Taser, so I'll leave that to folks who know more than me.
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    Member Array Gunnie's Avatar
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    Being in Law Enforcment I personally am not a fan of stun guns. Taser makes a nice product I can't argue there however you only get one shot maybe two if you reload. The Taser works very well if you hit what you shoot at and barbs make contact with muscle mass. The problem is hitting your target even with the laser we have officers that miss. Remember the laser points at impact of one dart you are firing to that are angled to spread. Training with them is super expensive because cartridges are 30-40 dollars a piece. Also you have a battery pack you have to use regularly. They require spark testing to maintain circuitry. We have had several officers not test there's for months then when they need them they don't work. The other problem with them is they tend to have more regulations regarding use and ownership.

    Hand held models that don't fire a electrode require you to be at arms distance. This is much to close to be using a weapon that can be taken and used against you. They have pour retention qualities almost like holding a cell phone in a fight...

    BBI covered OC to a T there fore I will leave it alone.

    I would recommend continuing working on the firearm with your Niece hopefully she will come around. My suggestion is in the mean time enroll her in some defensive classes there are many wonderful training organizations throughout the country. Knowledge is the greatest tool it's something that is free to practice once it's obtained is excellent for health. And can never be taken away. Also many offer women's only courses to make it more comfortable during training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeftofMars View Post
    I have a niece upper 20's works healthcare at night. She isn't interested in a gun for carry (yet, I'm working on it) but is open to stun guns or mace/pepper spray, (yeah I know, baby steps, better than a rock). I'm directing this to LEO's because I figure if you're going with less lethal you need to be sure what you have works. What does? I'd like brands and models, only items available to us non LEO types.
    I'm not LE, but train them in OC usage. Stun guns are a joke. Of all the less-lethals pepper spray is your best, most realistic option. For brands and tips and tricks follow link: Sabre Red versus Fox 5.3 pepper spray
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    I'd say stun gun. Consider you do not have to actually -use- the stun gun to benefit. If you're going to use pepper spray as an actual agent, be sure and practice with it against a resisting opponent.
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    "Stun guns" are almost worthless in the manner they are used and carried by 99% of those who do. A Taser C2 might be a good choice if she can find a way to carry it ready at hand, but they are costly both in purchase and practice.

    A foaming OC, not a light spray, is best IMO. A small canister she can keep clipped in her scrub pants and no one will be the wiser.
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    You just have to know the limitations of each:

    OC Spray Pros: Inexpensive, generally effective, great equalizer to allow you to retreat, can be carried on a key chain in your hand without anyone really thinking much of it. Fewer legal restrictions than any other defensive weapon.

    OC Spray Cons: Maximum effectiveness takes anywhere from several seconds to a minute or more. Difficult to deploy rapidly if not already in hand. Must hit the face to be effective. Risk of cross-contamination due to wind drift or physical contact with a sprayed assailant.

    TASER Pros: Instantly effective on hit against a higher percentage of people than OC spray. Cycle runs for 30 seconds on a C2, allowing you plenty of time to retreat. Ability to drive-stun an assailant after firing the cartridge.

    TASER Cons: Easily 15-20 times more expensive than pepper spray. Single-shot cartridge is clumsy to reload. Has a sweet spot for firing because the probes spread after firing- too far away and you may exceed the range of the wire or increase the odds of a probe missing, too close and you can substantially reduce the effectiveness as the probes land too close together. If you miss with a probe, it doesn't work at all, although you can then drive-stun your assailant to complete the circuit, that requires closing to grapple and will only last as long as both probe and TASER prongs are in contact with your assailant. In many places TASERs are more heavily restricted than defensive sprays, which are a more 'traditional' woman's self-defense tool.

    Stun Gun Pros: None, really.

    Stun Gun Cons: Largely ineffective pain compliance tool. Does not have the neuromuscular incapacitation effect of a good TASER hit. NOT the same thing as a TASER. Unpredictable build quality due to large number of manufacturers of unknown reputation.

    Really the biggest obstacle with these is that many of the people who want TASERs or pepper spray want it because they are unwilling to hurt an assailant or unconfident in their ability to use force. That same sort of person is also reluctant to seek training, and if anything, TASERs and OC require just as much familiarization training as a firearm to use effectively. Unfortunately, that training is also harder to come by.
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    Senior Member Array LeftofMars's Avatar
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    Definitely sounds like I need to keep nudging her toward a firearm. She fired my Glock 26 but the grip is "too big", she's about the weight of a wet cat and 5'6" or so. The Nano fit her better but with the weight she didn't like the recoil. I have a PPK I thought she might do better with the added weight and reduced cartridge but she couldn't effectively rack it. Someone (idiot) let her fire a small light 357 once and she won't even look at my J-frames. I didn't think about it before but the Glock 36 May work for her. Thanks for the info guys, I'm going to let her read this and talk to her some more over the weekend.
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    Get her some Krav Maga training or other SD training.

    My 5' 2" wife that weighs 110 pounds could probably take out most men twice her weight thanks to KM, despite the fact she has a Ruger SR9C in her pretty Coach handbag.
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    VIP Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeftofMars View Post
    Definitely sounds like I need to keep nudging her toward a firearm. She fired my Glock 26 but the grip is "too big", she's about the weight of a wet cat and 5'6" or so. The Nano fit her better but with the weight she didn't like the recoil. I have a PPK I thought she might do better with the added weight and reduced cartridge but she couldn't effectively rack it. Someone (idiot) let her fire a small light 357 once and she won't even look at my J-frames. I didn't think about it before but the Glock 36 May work for her. Thanks for the info guys, I'm going to let her read this and talk to her some more over the weekend.
    A lot of the problem here is probably technique. When I first started shooting, I was totally self-taught, and the Kahr P9 I had as a carry gun seemed to be almost uncontrollable. Several years later, a lot of reading, practice, and formal training has corrected my shooting stance, grip, and trigger squeeze, and suddenly the guns that used to recoil so sharply are quite mild.
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    Senior Member Array Crescentstar's Avatar
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    Stun guns are not effective at all. TV is largely responsible for the myth that they work. No one passes out or falls down quivering uncontrollably after being stunned. More likely, they will be madder and beat you even worse or kill you sooner.

    Foam OC would be my best recommendation. Fox is my favorite brand, and I have been sprayed with many of them.
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    Senior Member Array LeftofMars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    "Stun guns" are almost worthless in the manner they are used and carried by 99% of those who do. A Taser C2 might be a good choice if she can find a way to carry it ready at hand, but they are costly both in purchase and practice.

    A foaming OC, not a light spray, is best IMO. A small canister she can keep clipped in her scrub pants and no one will be the wiser.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crescentstar View Post
    Stun guns are not effective at all. TV is largely responsible for the myth that they work. No one passes out or falls down quivering uncontrollably after being stunned. More likely, they will be madder and beat you even worse or kill you sooner.

    Foam OC would be my best recommendation. Fox is my favorite brand, and I have been sprayed with many of them.
    Where would you suggest getting the foaming type?

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    Senior Member Array vice87's Avatar
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    for OC spray, maybe try Fox Labs 5.3 but they are both good.

    Oregon Department of Corrections uses Sabre and they ran a pilot with Fox and decided it was too hot. that might tell ya something. from my experience, it's a crap shoot for people who are affected by it. inmates who are sprayed weekly still curl up when hit, where as others who haven't ever been sprayed keep on coming. same on the streets.

    if you are able to successfully nudge her to a gun, (although i do not own and hesitant to plug guns I don't own) maybe have her try the Taurus pt111 g2. it is $250 or less, 9mm, and has been found to defy Taurus' infamous quality control more often than not. simple to operate like a glock and priced well to let her give it a whirl. seems small and easy to conceal, even for a wet cat.

    I'm a 100% positive in getting one of these or the .40cal for my own to try.
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    Member Array Holliday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeftofMars View Post
    Where would you suggest getting the foaming type?
    You can't go wrong with a foam from any of the big brands i.e. Sabre, Defense Tech, Fox. The latter I'd get from defensive devices. I have no affiliation with them, just know they sell more Fox than anyone else. That guarantees a fresh product. As for Sabre and D-Tech, I'd order directly from them. OC does have a shelf-life. Often times spray ordered from other places is already a few years into it's useful life cycle.


    Regarding departments discontinuing using Fox-- From what I've heard, it has more to do with the solvent they use in the 5.3 than anything else.

    Holliday
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    Member Array Denster's Avatar
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    No matter the weapon nothing beats situational awareness. Without it, doesn't really matter what you have if you don't see the threat coming.
    That said all will require practice to be effective.
    Quality stun guns can be effective but require the strength to grapple with a subject for up to ten seconds.
    The C2 taser is very effective but also requires considerable training to include failure drills.
    Pepper spray, particularly the foam, likely gives you the best chance of defeating and getting away from an assailant not armed with a firearm with minimal and inexpensive training. The training is still important, you don't just stand still and spray.
    A firearm is of course the most effective but only with considerable training and the proper mindset.
    All that being said a woman, who is not willing to accept the considerable responsibility of defensive firearms use, is probably best served by a quality foam spray like Fox5.3.
    Easiest place I've found to purchase is from ecop on eBay. Also the cheapest.


    In response to Holliday's post. You are correct about the solvent in Fox. It is flammable and some agencies had a problem with lighting folks up by tasing after spraying.

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