Knife vs Gun
This is a discussion on Knife vs Gun within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; One final thing to consider in this video. It proves the effectiveness of an edged weapon at close ranges.
We all know this.
Everyone preaches ...
September 20th, 2007 01:04 PM
One final thing to consider in this video. It proves the effectiveness of an edged weapon at close ranges.
We all know this.
Everyone preaches that distance is the key.
I'm sorry, but no one can keep a 21 foot radius around them.
Next time you are in line at a fast food restaurant or at a gas station, take a look at how close the person in line behind you will get to you. Take a look at how close you have gotten to the person in front of you. Next time you sit down to eat at a dinner, take a look at how close the next table is or how closely someone has to walk to your table to get to their own. Take a look at how close your waiter or waitress gets. When you're at the grocery store, take a look at how close people get to you when you are passing one another in the aisles. Take a look at how close you get when you are checking out at the cash-register. When you had the cashier the money, whella, you are now within about two feet of one another. Even when running or walking on a trail, if someone passes you from the other direction, chances are they are within 4-5, if not even closer, feet.
No matter how careful one is he can never keep an effective 21-foot radius of personal space around him and most knife-wielding idiots are idiotic enough to attack from that distance. They are going to get as close as possible before they attack, it gives them the element of surprise and also provides that less witnesses see them brandishing a knife or even what they've done.
My point here is that he key is NOT distance.. That's impossible. People are going to get close to you whether you like it or not and nothing is going to change that short of either screaming at everyone who gets within 21 feet (which will get you in more trouble than it's worth) or never going outside again, for the rest of your life.
The key is not distance, it's vigilance, and MOVING.
In this video, the police officers stood stock still while the attacker approached. They tried to draw their gun ONLY which was the paramount mistake. Any one of them who tried to move AND draw at the same time would have upped their chances of success by at least 50%.
Even if it was a simple side step to the left or right, or maybe even a couple steps back and to the side while drawing, I think one would see a steady increase in the success of a clear presentation of the gun and shots being able to be fired.
But also remember that these police officers were prepared for the advance. Were they not prepared they would have lost at least a half a second figuring out what is happening. And if they aren't paying attention, that would be even worse.
It's not distance so much (as far as I reason it out) it's staying alert and MOVING when you need to.
But that's just Lima theory.
September 28th, 2007 05:57 PM
I think what everyone should gather from that video is to practice drawing while circling out (backpedaling diagonally to either side)
That and a swift kick to the groin or push kick (if you're trained) to the gut/chest seems pretty effective if someone is rushing you.
September 28th, 2007 06:31 PM
Lets face it, most everyone would be cut, even if they moved at the initial start of the attack here. It's not movement that will keep you from being cut, but when you move.
Move too soon, he tracks onto you and still cuts you. You'll have to time the movement making it so that he has already comitted and has gained enough speed to make it difficult for him to track onto you. At the distances used in the vids, that timing of the movement is split second correct, or you are cut regardless.
Those three scenarios are not actually gun solutions. Gun centric thinking make them gun solutions. You'll need both hands/arms and a lot of training to even keep from taking body core shots which will likely leave you with lethal wounds.
As ccw carriers, limatunes brings up valid observations that we all place ourselves in, by necessity, that range and closer daily to people and are constantly vulnerable to attacks that we just would not be able to effectively react to or likely survive.
I observe our sales people continuously hand someone a folder or straight blade from across the counter and stand right along the glass while the customer is up against their side only 18" from each other after the salesperson has handed an unknown person [ to them ], a lethal weapon. Worse, they are looking around at distractions of other customers, who's walking in the door, whatever and are not even aware of the potential danger to themselves in a heartbeat.
When I have to hand someone a blade at the counter, I place the knife on the matt on the counter, I back up so that person can't just reach out and cut me, and have them put the knife down on the counter before I reenter that "zone" where I can be touched by the knife.
Very few will survive the vid encounters IMO. The ones who have the best chance of escaping with their life are the ones who pocket carry, can get their hand on the gun once they recognize a potential problem, have enough awareness and forethought to determine something may be wrong here, and couple all of that with being ready to move and shoot at the same time.
Even then, it will be a crap shoot [ pun intended ].
Backpedaling is a bad idea in any SD scenario. The worst choice IMO. You can't create enough distance doing so to make a difference.
Last edited by AzQkr; September 28th, 2007 at 09:03 PM.
September 28th, 2007 07:59 PM
Isn't that the rule of the knife fight? (you are going to get cut.)
Originally Posted by AzQkr
I think another thing to keep in mind when considering these things is that 'cut/stabbed' doesn't necessarily mean 'dead'.
I've heard (and it makes sense) that knives ~3" and under can't easily reach vital organs. Look at all the reports of people who are stabbed multiple times and still function and then live. Main issue is blood loss.
We talk about the ineffectiveness of handguns, and I think this applies here as well.
And as stated before, there is a fair chance that the person attacking you (knife or gun) isn't necessarily going to know what they are doing.
I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about this. I'm sure being cut/stabbed/shot is a brutal business. But I also think we should remember that just because we are shot or stabbed doesn't mean we are finished if we staying focused.
September 28th, 2007 09:05 PM
I think your comment about the length of the blade is a little off....
There are plenty of targets that will kill you dead that are a lot less then 3" under your skin.
Arteries & Veins in your neck, thigh and upper arms to start. Your lungs aren't that deep in your chest, nor is your heart (although the breast bone makes it harder to get at)...there are a few others...
as an example, an injury to the femoral artery (that big huge pipe that runs down each leg...the wound in Black Hawk Down) can cost you more then a liter of blood (someone else in EMS back me up on this, or change the number for me!) without showing any signs of swelling!
Just an FYI.
Firefighter / EMT - Always Ready. Ever Willing.
~Never do anything that you don't want to have to explain to the paramedics...~
September 28th, 2007 09:14 PM
3" of penetration in the wrong area will puncture a lung, reach the heart, major arteries, kidneys, etc pretty easily on all but the biggest [ to mean fattest ] of individuals.
You can certainly live if stabbed, but you want to protect your bodies core as much as possible in an attack. Some won't realize and haven't realized they've been stabbed in the heat of battle until later, then died or lived, it's a crap shoot to be sure.
A knife wielding aggressor doesn't have to know what he is doing to kill you, he only has to connect with the blade in the right places and you are in a world of hurt, either immediately or later.
Doesn't matter if you live long enough to win the battle, you can lose the war hours or days later from the damage incurred before you came out on top at the scene at that moment.
Not something to look forward to at the least of it, to be sure. You better have some very good H2H skills. I train others in unarmed against a knife, and you better protect the bodies core from penetration at all costs.
My own collapsing startle response does just that. To read more on that you can look here:
September 28th, 2007 09:18 PM
We posted almost at the same time with the same ideas on this subject of the length of the blade.
Femoral artery being severed, not just nicked? Better be on the operating table when it happens, the chance of surviving that one is slim and none on the streets.
One of the cops I worked with back east shot and severed his while seated and cleaning a gun. He had just enough time to get a belt around it and tightened before he passed out. He lived, but barely made it.
Good post sir
September 28th, 2007 11:37 PM
Far to many people underestimate knives. They always have scared me more than guns.
I'm trying to beat into the guys at work (police dept) heads that they need to respond with lethal force when threatened with a knife. I dont know why, but many of them want to use less lethal techniques.
"Just blame Sixto"
I reserve the right to make fun, point and laugh etc.
September 29th, 2007 02:09 AM
Yeah... I was talking about a nick, or a small lac in the femoral artery... we worry about it in EMS as a result of a femur fracture... (in NJ a bilateral femur fracture automatically buys you a ride to a trauma center...although in practice, usually a single femur fracture does that all on it's own [it takes way lots of force to break that bone!]). In the case of a fracture, we worry that part of the bone nicked the artery, and you're bleeding out, and we can't tell... which is way bad too!.
Sixto, are there department regs that you have to worry about too? I mean... as a civilian, part of me likes the idea of doing minimal damage whenever possible... but... as a realist, and someone who's worked with less then cooperative patients in my ambulance... I fully realize that the first priority is that you go home at the end of the day!
Firefighter / EMT - Always Ready. Ever Willing.
~Never do anything that you don't want to have to explain to the paramedics...~
September 29th, 2007 09:58 AM
What an interesting post. Let me weigh in with my two cents worth (that may not be worth even that):
As a folding knife instructor for PDs I've always encouraged officers to carry weapons with a 2" blade. It's PLENTY long enough to do fatal damage if you know the targets to attack.
If the attacker is at arm's reach already, then you are doing nothing but giving him advantage if you waste time trying to draw your weapon.
There's no way you can go backward as fast as he can go forward so backing up ain't going to work.
As someone posted previously, EVERYONE gets cut in a knife fight. Not all cuts are fatal and I've seen some truly carved up people live because it was all soft tissue - not organ or arterial - damage.
MENTAL REHEARSAL works. This type of event HAS to be considered, planned and trained for. Someone else earlier on said that if you don't have empty hand tactics in your tool box you're behind the curve. +10 on that.
Gravity beats everyone in a fight. Learn to get them off-balance and attack all you can from leg's length rather than closing distance if possible.
SHOW NO MERCY. While fear may slow everyone down, fear of litigation makes the mind go in circles that it never (or rarely) comes out of. Someone attacking you with a knife leaves you EVERY force option. What CAN'T you do? NOTHING. Crippling, blinding, maming, killing... these are all acceptable results from your defense to a knife attack.
Ultimately, though, if you haven't considered the possibility you will most likely freeze up when it occurs.
My books on Kindle
"Cogito, ergo armatum sum"
I think, therefore I am armed.
September 29th, 2007 05:56 PM
Frank, check your PM's. I just sent you an important message.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; NRA Endowment Life; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
September 29th, 2007 06:52 PM
I am a firm believer in always looking to take them to the ground (and not me) along with incapacitating their mobility so they can not continue their attack.
Originally Posted by frankborelli
+10 on the thoughts on slowing down because of litigation. Most people who are attacked rarely think of this aspect of an encounter which may very well lead to defeat.
ACCJT Certified LEO DT Instructor
September 29th, 2007 07:23 PM
I have been knifed three times and neither time did I realize the bad guy had a knife. My training as a boxer was my salvation. If you punch a heavy bag a lot you develop a punch and an automatic reflex from sparing and fighting that makes you respond without thinking. A good hard punch to a vital area is a way to buy time to draw the gun. I would advise that in the video that the gun wielder not attempt to draw until he assumed a defensive stance to avoid the knife and then go to the gun. Fighting to defend yourself is a multiple skill and some martial arts is more than helpful. Just punching holes in cardboard at 25 yards is not the answer to survival. I grew up fist fighting as all kids of my era (30s and 40s) I am too weak to fight and too slow to run at 75 but I still think I have an instinct to surrivive.
Last edited by Sam Douthit; September 29th, 2007 at 07:26 PM.
SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM
September 29th, 2007 08:54 PM
I didn't mean to suggest that you were not in a lethal struggle. It just seemed to me that the reaction is that after the knife wielder reached the defender, people seemed to react like "it's all over, you are dead". I just wanted to suggest that you plan beyond that point.
October 19th, 2007 02:17 PM
While this demonstration has it’s draw backs, I have always felt that when dealing with a BG at close quarters the “out of no ware switchblade knife”, is more of threat than a concealed firearm.
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