Knife vs Gun

This is a discussion on Knife vs Gun within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3 I believe this to be true. Try it with an airsoft pistol and a rubber knife and you will see....

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Thread: Knife vs Gun

  1. #1
    Member Array inferno3's Avatar
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    Knife vs Gun

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=3

    I believe this to be true.

    Try it with an airsoft pistol and a rubber knife and you will see.

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    All I see in that video.....

    Are poor tactics on both sides. Both combatants can be defeated rather easily if you know how to counter such attacks. As shown in the video, the knife wielder is successful repeatedly against multiple opponents because he seized the initiative and closed the distance quickly, taking advantage of the fact that the officers concentrated all their effort and both hands to bringing their weapons to bear. This allowed the knife wielder to easily get inside their guard and make potentially lethal cuts. By the same token, the Knife guy telegraphs his attack and movements badly, overextending himself every time to press home his attack. Believe me, up against someone who knows how to fight the knife guy will not have it so easy. The key to surviving these assaults is training and mindset; we all know that someone can cover a 21 foot distance in less than 1.5 seconds, so the key to neutralizing the attack is to extend the amount of time the knife guy requires to complete his attack. It also helps not to tie up both of your hands trying to get your weapon. Strong handed/weak handed shooting is at a premium here. Also, understand that in a knife fight, you are going to get cut. the key is to keep the cuts away from lethal areas like your throat, your groin and the lung area. All these areas have main arteries that if cut, will bleed you into a dizzy stupor in seconds, death in a couple of minutes. My tactical solution:

    1) His hands are obviously hiding something when confronted; my weapon would already be out. At the very least, any retention snap would already be off, facilitating a fast draw.

    2) His attack is completely focused through his knife as he charges like a bull in a china shop; because of this total focus through his knife, he leaves himself terribly vulnerable to punches to the face, or kicks to his knees or groin. If he is too close, I concentrate on using his charge against him, concentrating on his knife and keeping it away from my skin. Deflecting him away and off balance will buy me distance, and time to get my weapon out and bring it to bear.

    3) 99% of the people anyone will encounter will not be a truly experienced knife fighter, just some idiot with a blade. Even the guy on the video was not very good. It is true that a master knife fighter can be as deadly as any gun as long as he can get close enough to use it. So remember, the key to solving this scenario is time and distance, coupled with sound tactics.
    Last edited by edr9x23super; August 3rd, 2007 at 08:25 PM. Reason: oooops
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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    Member Array hrtbrk07's Avatar
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    This was the worst thing ive ever seen. I dont know a single officer that is going to walk up to that without having some sort of weapon in hand. I also don't know one that is going to try to draw down in the scenario as opposed to evading the reckless charge.(anybody remember Mike Tyson's punch out? the bull?) What a waste of time. Sorry, not trying to flame you or anything, the video is just misleading. Just think of it as a game of rock paper scissors. except let's call it gun, knife, brains. Oh, and brains wins everytime. Doesnt matter what weapon you have...if the guy your up against is smarter and better trained.
    "Wear a gun to someone else's house, you're saying, 'I'll defend this home as if it were my own.' When your guests see you carry a weapon, you're telling them, 'I'll defend you as if you were my own family"

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    Member Array inferno3's Avatar
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    I've practiced this same scenerio with an airsoft pistol being drawn from a holster and the knife out and ready beat the pistol 8 out of 10 times when drawing into an isosceles stance. I did that naturally as it's the way I shoot. Drawing back into a weaver was much more effective,but still an eyeopener. My conclusion a determined person with a knife skilled or unskilled is an extremely dangerous adversary.

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    Senior Member Array kavity's Avatar
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    Thats a NWS link.

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    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    I think the point of the video is that a bad guy with a knife is dangerous at farther distances than you would think.

    As for the officer having his gun out before the fight, that's fine if you know there is going to be a fight.

    What if this was a situation where the officer is stopping for lunch at the mall and a bad guy has predetermined that he will casually approach the officer and then attack with his knife which was hidden until the attack.

    If force-on-force training has shown us nothing else, it show that when the SHTF we must 1) MOVE IMMEDIATELY and 2) if you don't have a few hand fighting skills in your toolbox, you will start out way behind the curve.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

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    Member Array Ten_Ring's Avatar
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    Let's shift away from him being an LEO. The main point you should see here is, if you are a CCW holder, how many of you "Honestly" think you could draw your weapon "from concealment" before he cut you in half? I really would hate to face that.
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    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ten_Ring View Post
    Let's shift away from him being an LEO. The main point you should see here is, if you are a CCW holder, how many of you "Honestly" think you could draw your weapon "from concealment" before he cut you in half? I really would hate to face that.
    So would I, but the point is that you shouldn't be solely focused on drawing your weapon. No matter what weapon you have, even if only your hands, step one must be to move out of the attackers path of travel. This buys you time to mentally process what is happening and respond. It also forces the attacker to adjust his plan on the fly. This is basic stuff that everyone needs to know and practice.

    Knives can be deadly, but the message that I take from that video is not to fixate on your weapon as your sole asset. It's been said already, but your brain is far more likely to keep you alive.

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    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    Well, put Bob!

    My point exactly in my previous post. As I stated previously, both people in the video focused their attack/response through their knife or their firearm. You need to be flexible and think on your feet if you are going to survive. I liken this to the same argument I had years ago regarding martial artists; when the first UFC came out on pay-per-view, we watched it on my old C-band satellite dish. Everyone was absolutely astounded when an unassuming gentleman dressed in a plain white karate outfit named Royce Gracie methodically took down opponents much larger and stronger than he was and defeated them by either choking them out, or putting them in various submission holds that would make their opponents simply quit, or get their joints dislocated or broken. Gracie is a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu master who became legendary for taking on the most fearsome karate punchers and kickers and making fools of them in front of everyone. So the lesson here is to be versatile, that is the key to survival.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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    Member Array vashooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ten_Ring View Post
    Let's shift away from him being an LEO. The main point you should see here is, if you are a CCW holder, how many of you "Honestly" think you could draw your weapon "from concealment" before he cut you in half? I really would hate to face that.
    Great point- I think most of us would be well and truly screwed if a mugger walked up to us and made that kind of charging attack from 6 feet or less...
    I get the impression that many people who carry concealed seem to run scenarios in their head that involve either some sort of pre-warning of an attack (a "hooligan" who threatens first with a weapon to rob you), or an escalation of a situation (an argument with a stranger that goes out of control), or a response to an attack that is initially directed elsewhere (crazed shooter or terrorist at a mall or office). But if someone simply wants to maim or kill you with no warning, there is little you can do about it unfortunately. A car jacker can very easily casually walk by your car looking innocent and all of a sudden turn quickly and stick a gun into your face and pull the trigger without giving you any chance to draw your own.

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    Stand and fight may = die; Move and fight = live. The problem with only square range training is people are more likely to stand and shoot - ingrained training. As pointed out, any ambush lowers your odds, but being vigilant and having a plan of movement is vital, even in a vehicle.

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    Member Array snyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    3) 99% of the people anyone will encounter will not be a truly experienced knife fighter, just some idiot with a blade. Even the guy on the video was not very good. It is true that a master knife fighter can be as deadly as any gun as long as he can get close enough to use it. So remember, the key to solving this scenario is time and distance, coupled with sound tactics.
    As a practitioner of Escrima/Kali (Filipino edged weapon martial arts) i can tell you that, a knife can be as deadly as a gun in practiced hands. It is more discrete and quieter along with faster in most cases, obviously lacking in range. (i.e. <21 foot rule).

    That said; most people make a primary simple baseball bat swing with a knife, easy to side step easy to block. It is obviously not nearly as easy to dodge bullets.

    Time and distance. Back pedal, buy time, shoot. That is the way to defeat a knife.

    -John

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    Member Array inferno3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwsnydes View Post
    As a practitioner of Escrima/Kali (Filipino edged weapon martial arts) i can tell you that, a knife can be as deadly as a gun in practiced hands. It is more discrete and quieter along with faster in most cases, obviously lacking in range. (i.e. <21 foot rule).

    That said; most people make a primary simple baseball bat swing with a knife, easy to side step easy to block. It is obviously not nearly as easy to dodge bullets.

    Time and distance. Back pedal, buy time, shoot. That is the way to defeat a knife.

    -John
    I agree with you to a degree on the back pedal,buy time ,shoot.

    However,I would disagree that most people would make baseball bat swings if untrained with a knife. With a boxcutter you are absoutely right. The untrained person with deadly intentions will be stabing or attempting to stab you repeatedly.

    I would use the analogy of "keeping the person too close or too far". Either clinching close greco,where most of my vital organs are covered up, or scrambling away out of reach. Either way until you can draw and fire.

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    Member Array snyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inferno3 View Post
    However,I would disagree that most people would make baseball bat swings if untrained with a knife. With a boxcutter you are absoutely right. The untrained person with deadly intentions will be stabing or attempting to stab you repeatedly.

    I would use the analogy of "keeping the person too close or too far". Either clinching close greco,where most of my vital organs are covered up, or scrambling away out of reach. Either way until you can draw and fire.
    I can promise you that the baseball primary is fact, a straight stab being a close second. A straight stab is very hard to deliver effectively to a moving target. Either way, MOVE!

    Just a P.S. never EVER clinch a person with a knife, it is too hard to isolate the weapon. Trust me on this one, with hundreds of hours of sparing I can't do it reliably. Use your ranged weapon at range.

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    Member Array KevinInstructor's Avatar
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    Something people do not consider enough, the bad guy looks wise like any other person and not in clothing which spells “bad guy.” With that thought Mr. bad guy can approach to arms length distance and cut the snot out of his intended prey and their weapon of choice is only felt, not seen. This to me is troublesome because there is truly no defense against this form of attack unless you are always questioning the intent of every single person who you come in contact with.
    Stay Safe,
    Kevin

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