Non-gun SD options for wife
This is a discussion on Non-gun SD options for wife within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, first the good news. My wife has recently started running to lose weight and get into shape. She is now up to 40 minutes ...
September 28th, 2007 12:33 AM
Non-gun SD options for wife
Ok, first the good news. My wife has recently started running to lose weight and get into shape. She is now up to 40 minutes (!) and runs every morning before going to work. I am not a morning person and can't run more than 10 minutes due to a bad knee and hip. Our dog can't keep up with her. She told me the other day that she has started varying her route due to a suspicious white delivery van she kept seeing. Turns out it was the newspaper delivery truck, but it is a good sign she isn't in condition white while running.
The bad news? She won't carry a gun (she comes from an anti-gun family, but has come around to tolerating my obsession). So I need to get her something light enough to carry while running, but effective. So far I've come up with 2 ounce OC (FL law restricts non-CCW's) and a electronic "screamer". Please give me your best ideas, as I worry about her.
Thanks in advance.
September 28th, 2007 02:19 AM
if she won't carry a gun, then OC and the alarm are the next best thing. a kubaton and a cell phone should be added to the list, IMO.
September 28th, 2007 10:22 AM
Got my daughter a Kimber LifeAct Guardian Angle to use while trail riding. It's a 2 shot OC device, with the stream fired by a pyro driven captive piston. It has a 13 foot range & a 3 year usable shelf life. http://www.life-act.com/guardianangel.php
September 28th, 2007 10:39 AM
How about the civilian taser? www.taser.com
September 28th, 2007 11:12 AM
I'd say the Taser (they have a new non-gun looking version) with good OC as backup.
I would get extra cartridges and practice even though it is expensive.
In her case, it should be fine, but people forget that with the Taser or OC, you have to consider what you do *after* you deploy since they only buy you some time. You need to be able to use that advantage either to secure the attacker(s) or to beat feet.
Older people, or people otherwise not capable of running away should really think about this.
Even if you get the Taser, consider OC as backup. Consider if the van consist of a two man abduction team, she can only reasonably engage one target with the Taser. Second guy is free and clear to grab her.
Nick, you might think about getting her some conventional OC as a backup. I assume this is similar to the OC 'paint ball' stuff deployed by police in riot situations. While it gives you farther range, it isn't clear that it delivers much OC and requires you to accurately place the shots. Certainly practice seems in order.
My take on it is the Taser is more effective than OC. While OC doesn't work on some people and if determined enough people can 'shrug off' OC, the Taser appears to be almost always effective (as opposed to 'stun gun's which don't appear effective). The gotcha is it is harder to use (you have to hit the target) and wears off nearly instantly once it stops delivering the charge (I think the civilian non-gun version does a 30 second charge, intended to shoot, set it down and *run*).
Personally, I think the Fox Labs 2oz "cone" is a good compromise for OC. I think anything smaller is not prudent.
I think both Fox Labs and Taser will replace your device free of charge if you use it in actual self defense.
+1 on cell phone.
Oh, consider getting another dog. While I personally don't believe in getting a dog for the sole purpose of protection, if you are already dog people, getting another that can accompany her might be good. When my wife and I are out walking, I suspect we look a lot less attractive as targets with two 100lb dogs...
September 28th, 2007 11:21 AM
+1 on the dog idea, A Doberman might be a good choice as a running companion since your in Florida.
bzdog is dead on with everything else he said too.
Since she is wanting to get into shape, how about some self defense classes, or martial arts program? That will help with both issues.
Last edited by SIXTO; September 28th, 2007 at 12:06 PM.
Reason: forgot the word on... I told bzdog he was dead. sorry.
"Just blame Sixto"
September 28th, 2007 11:29 AM
There is no "suitable" option in the abbsence of a firearm. I am a bit puzzled. If your wife is anti-gun, then she is anti-self defense. So if she isn't into protecting herself, then why would she carry any weapon at all. Like I said, I am really trying to figure out the situation. It seems that your wife's family has put quite a bit of pressure on her reguarding guns. As a husband myself, I feel that it is my duty to inform you that she is YOUR wife. You are responsible for her protection among other things. It is also your responsibility to make sure she has the capability to defend herself in your absence. I suggest you have a long talk and explain to her that if the SHTF, she would regret not having a gun, and had to settle for pepper spray that will not work against a methed up bad guy. My wife was very much anti-gun and anti-violence no matter what. When I was in the army, my wife worked at subway. We lived about 2 blocks from the subway and she had to walk since we only had one vehicle. I routinely explained to her that she needed to be able to defend herself. She kept telling me I am over reacting and bla bla bla. One night she was walking home and noticed a white van following her. As she sped up so did the van. Suddenly, a man came out and ran towards her, so she started running with the van behind them all. She got to the door and yelled for me. Here is the kicker, I got home not more then 2 minutes ago and didnt even take my boots off yet. What if I were not home? Would my wife have time to use her key? I ran and got my 12guage tactical shotty and proceeded out the door. My wife went inside as I hid among some bushes. I noticed that the van was going up and down the street looking for her. I stood up as it stopped close to me and I made my "presence" known. That van hightailed it out of there. After that day, she was a believer in guns. Before you all tell me that I should of called the police, I was an airborne infantryman more than capable of defending my ground. I feared for my wife's safety and did not feel that the police would be adequate for deterring future confrontations. I am sure however, that the guy in BDUS and maroon beret with a shotty would persuade most bgs to go away and never return. Anyway, the moral of the story is. Make up your mind as to whether or not you want to defend yourself. If you choose to defend yourself, then do it right.
Last edited by Scott; October 2nd, 2007 at 06:28 PM.
Reason: language filter work around
September 28th, 2007 11:59 AM
While I agree with you that anything other than a firearm is a half measure, I don't agree that AutoFan (or anyone else for that matter) can verbally persuade her that she is mistaken or misguided and I think the attempt do so might only make matters worse (for example, she may no longer want to discuss these issues with him).
I think the people who feel this way are driven by an emotional response that cannot be overcome (usually) by an argument of logic.
Take your own example. You were not able to convince your wife. Some external event made her change her mind.
I think it is fine to discuss these things. But I would be very careful that she doesn't feel like he is 'pressuring' her.
As much as we would like to think otherwise, logic does not always rule and our loved ones have the right as adults to decide to bury their head in the sand.
Talk to them. Support them. Protect them when you can, but respect their right to decide and hope they come around.
September 28th, 2007 12:55 PM
OC spray and a nice bright flashlight such as the E2D if she runs in the dark hours.
Also, www.alliancemartialarts.com has a small impact device called the Stinger designed by James A. Keating. This man knows his stuff. The stinger is very small and light and cheap. This device is very easy to use, all she would have to do is close her fist around it, if she can punch she can use the device.
Hope this helps.
September 28th, 2007 01:51 PM
Right is as Right as Wrong is Wrong.....
As for my wife? She was persuaded by an outside event because I didn't do my job. No excuses. I am glad that she wasn't raped before I had to tell her "I told you so." That may seem harsh, but as you say, an adult has the right to their own way of thinking. Fine, then they alone must suffer the consequences. In a marriage it is a two way street. Yes, each individual has rights. However, the two people involved must come to an agreement somehow. Whether it is by giving up to one side, or just flat out agreeing. It must come to a head. Every situation is different but when it comes down to self defense, as a husband, you have to put your foot down. It is your job to protect your wife and family. By saying to your wife, "ok you have the right to not carry a weapon even though you know how to use it, and know how dangerous it is in this city. I hope no one decides to hurt you today." is being negligent on the part of the husband. Your right, everyone has the right to choose to be the sheep, or the sheep dog. You have the right to heed my advice or not too. Just remember, the consequences can be severe if I am right about the NEED to defend yourself. If I am wrong, so what? No one gets hurt. It's up to you.
September 28th, 2007 02:06 PM
So you give her some hand until she agrees? Seriously, I agree with you, men have a responsibility to protect the family, but how exactly are you going to "put your foot down", if the wife refuses your admonitions?
Originally Posted by P991911
Better yet, suppose she takes your advice, against her will (aka, does not adopt a "warrior mindest"), and is violently assaulted? Her faith in you is gone, as well as confidence in herself. (Seen it, worked it.) Being ham-handed on this topic is rarely a good answer.
bzdog is right, its an evolutionary process. She's working out, if she can be enrolled in a sparring gym, the mindset will come, with some nuturing...
September 28th, 2007 03:37 PM
Rob, your totally taking everything out of context in this post as well as others. I doubt you are a bad guy but I'll assume that your not understanding what I am trying to say.
Also what do you mean "give her some hand?" What are you suggesting? Is that the first thing you do when you need to "put your foot down,'' sorry Mister, I don't beat people into submission if that is what you are trying to imply.
When I say put your foot down, it means don't take no for an answer. Pull your wife up to the computer and show her some videos on youtube, look up news reports, give her factual evidence. Then, ask her to supply evidence to support her claims of not needing to carry a weapon. Look, your right in the fact that if somone agrees without adopting the mind-set it is dangerous. This is why you have to convince her and you don't stop until you do. There is no time for the "evolutionary process" because a woman can be viciously assaulted the moment she walks out of the door. I just find it funny that you always seem to pick one thing out and lambase it. You did not even address my post as a whole.
THIS IS THE BOTTOM LINE. It is a husbands DUTY to ensure his family's safety. If his wife is unarmed, and assaulted, and left unable to defend herself due to the fact that she is ignorant, then the husband has failed to do his job. As I previoulsy mentioned, it almost took a tragedy to change my wifes mind. I MADE A MISTAKE. I failed to do my job. Since when did you, among others adopt the after the fact mentality? As CWP holders, we are the part of society that refuses to be the sheep. We are thereby, circumventing the after the fact mentality. If the sheep mentality appeals to you, then turn your "mortar," into a cell phone and call the police next time a rather large individual is is threatening you or your family's life. By what you seem to be saying Rob, you indicate that it is ok to allow ones wife to simply walk about, as ignorant as ever to the dangers of every day life, until she is raped and almost murdered and then decides that maybe she should consider carrying a weapon. You will probably pick one thing, and take it out of context, so let me ask you this. What would you do if your wife was attacked and seriously injured, or even killed, because you did not arm her, and train her, simply due to the fact that "she didn't want too?" How would you feel? How would you justify that situation to yourself? By telling yourself that she had the right to make her own decisions? By telling yourself that it is not your responsibility? Society needs to re-learn a few basic things. Not everything is better just because people have a right. If this were the case then why dicipline your kids? They have a right as a living creature to do what they want right? After all, they didn't ask to be brought into this world. Rights are not rights if it infringes upon other's rights. As in this case, sacrificing a families security just because the wife doesn't like guns. Our society is crap now because everything is acceptable and everyone has "rights." The word "rights," by the way, are used way too loosely and has become synonomous with irresponsibility in most cases. I am interested in hearing your response. However if it is one of your two sentence posts declaring how awful or how uninformed I must be because of my willingness to defend my family, then I wont even bother to respond to any more of your posts.
You know Rob, most people have to pay money for advice like this. Merry Christmas
P.S. If your wife decides to take your advice, and accepts proper training, the next time she is assaulted, she will have no excuse for not putting two in the chest and one in the head.
October 1st, 2007 10:20 AM
P99, most "sheep" are of the passive-agressive sort; the more you emphasize something, the more resistant they are to change. While the direct approach will work with some, it most certainly will not work with others. I've worked lots of DV, and more than a few sexual assaults, I recognize the "interpersonal dynamics", both in a professional and personal level.
My point is simply that if one is overbearing, one is unlikely to make a convert, in any context. "Logic" and "proof" are rarely the dominant elements of many people's daily lives. My point is that "putting one's foot down" is unlikely to have the desired effect, or lend credibility to one's argument, in the majority of relationships.
A gentleman on the internet asked for advice to help his wife. Perhaps their relationship is unusually hierarchial, again, most are not. As I stated, in concept, I agree with you, but bz's more circumspect approach may serve somewhat better.
My wife has been assaulted, prior to our marriage. Your perspective is duly noted.
October 1st, 2007 10:44 AM
Have you taken her shooting? Make a day of it with other activities like shopping. Use a low recoil .22 and keep the target close. Don't get into teacher mode, just enough for safety and how to aim.
Using a low-key, no big deal approach, a lot of anti-gunners can be brought around. It can take some time, but losing their fear of firearms is a big first step.
October 1st, 2007 03:41 PM
Look, we've been married for 18 years now, and I've gotten her moved from her anti-gun family's position to actually letting me drill holes in our brand new hardwood floors for a new gun safe. She hangs out with my shooting friends and has no problem with me taking our son and his friend shooting. She just isn't to the point of carrying a gun because she doesn't think she would use it. Nothing wrong with knowing your limitations. Now she is getting more aware of personal safety, and I want to present her with options she will carry and can see herself using in a SD situation.
I would love for her to go shooting with me and get a CWP and carry a gun for personal defense. But I also know it ain't gonna happen in the near future. If your wife or girlfriend does what you tell her to do, when you tell her to do it, you are living in a different time or place.
The Kimber OC device looks promising, as does the civilian Air-Taser, in addition to the personal alarm.
Someone suggested another dog to go running with her, our dog is big enough (a 70 lb black Lab), she justs runs him into the ground with the heat down here.
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