This is a discussion on Knives....Really within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey friends I was recently weighing my most recent purchase of a CRKT M16 folder, and I thought...is a knife really a good back up ...
September 9th, 2005 06:51 PM
Hey friends I was recently weighing my most recent purchase of a CRKT M16 folder, and I thought...is a knife really a good back up for civilians without basic military training with a knife. I mean it really does not take much for a untrained person to be effective with the tool. Moreover, I have often heard how people will get a false confidence, my latest 300.00 knife will protect me.
Specifically, our very statement under our knife section here on Combatcarry even states that:' finding a good knife can often be harder than finding a pistol" and yes I paraphrased. I was taught in the service take care of your weapon because if it ever is a need for you to use your knife you have really screwed up some where. I first had Gerber that I gave to my mom because she lives alone and is waiting to pay for CCW permit, yes mom completed her course and is waiting on her permit. However, I gave her my little Gerber just in case. She was super happy.
Now I carry my new CRKT and it is sweet and I do have military knowledge of knife fighting, but I see myself as more than likely using it to cut a seat belt or do things around the house I don't know. Moreover, and I do pack it when I head off to school and of course leaving it in the car before I head to my class. What do you think viable back up, something we should depend on or is it more like oh man, things have really gone south and at least I have my folder. ok lets talk...
Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....
September 9th, 2005 06:51 PM
September 9th, 2005 07:36 PM
I think a knife is an incredibly useful tool. A decent blade can last a lifetime and can be an inexpensive, plain knife from Wally World or a fancy custom piece that costs an arm and a leg. There's a knife in the price range of just about anyone.
I never leave home without a knife or two (today it's a Benchmade Mini-Stryker). Today I used it a half dozen times opening up plastic packages and party supplies. My co-workers were looking all around the place for scissors, when their eyes landed on me and they said, "Betty's got a knife."
It's not my first line of defense against an attacker, especially multiple attackers, but it is an effective line of defense, especially if you're well trained. It doesn't run out of ammo. It's compact and can be concealed almost anywhere.
While a bullet comes out the end of a barrel, a knife can slash and stab this-way-and-that, turning someone into a bloody piece of mincemeat in seconds. That's scary stuff! The human body is a vulnerable thing - so many arteries, organs and muscle groups. The thought of being slashed open and seeing my insides scares me more than receiving a bullet hole. The intimidation factor of a gleaming blade is definitely there.
Before I was able to legally able to carry a gun, I carried a knife. I carried a Benchmade AFCK every day, so I at least had some line of defense that was more effective than a pepper squirt in the eye. When you're a young female college student traveling alone and at school late hours of the night, it was nice to have some kind of protection.
I've heard, "when someone attacks you with a knife, you don't realize it until you've been stuck already." The Tueller Drill, usually seen executed with an unconcealed holster while the shooter began aware of the oncoming attacker, is scary enough. Tried while drawing a concealed gun, those who underestimate the knife realize it's a formidable foe.
In summary, it doesn't take a big IQ to kill a person with a knife, but if someone is serious in carrying one strictly for the purposes of defense, proper training would be ideal. (Lawyers would have a field day with that, but they already do with guns... )
"Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa
September 9th, 2005 08:14 PM
My main folder (Buck) is very much a general tool - along with Leatherman Wave. I regard it as essential - in particular for such things as cutting seat belt webbing etc.
It's use for defensive purposes is bottom of the list for me. I have not been formally trained in knife fighting and do not want to put that to the test. That said, if all else was gone for options then I would make very best use I could.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
September 9th, 2005 08:18 PM
knives are useful tools. they can do all kinds of stuff. I never leave home without at least 1 blade.
September 9th, 2005 09:43 PM
I carried knives for years before I became interested in their use as self defense tools. The bit I do know about knives mostly centers around handgun retention. But I'd carry several knives and have for years and years even if I had no interest in them as self defense tools.
A knife is just one of those things that is so basic to the human condition. It's a lever and a wedge combined into one compound machine and nothing more and nothing less.
You can't live without knives. You literally cannot. You couldn't even prepare food. I can't fathom anyone not carrying a knife.
September 9th, 2005 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Euclidean
I think if I had to choose between a knife or a gun for daily carry, I'd probably choose the knife. I can't articulate exactly why, maybe it's because you can do a lot more things with a blade than a gun.
Seek safety at the heart of danger.
Live Easy, Die Hard
September 9th, 2005 09:58 PM
I must agree with Qball. A knife will get you out of a lot of bad spots. Remember that most day to day problems aren't easily solved with a gun.
September 9th, 2005 10:10 PM
Alot of people do underestimate it. I was a member of the International Blade Fighters Guild for almost 2 years. 87% of all attacks happen within 4 feet. The founder of IBFG wrote a great article on Knives VS Guns that I will post below:
Originally Posted by Betty
Knives vs. Guns
The old cliché “Don't bring a knife to a gunfight” is sound logic in circumstances when the gun has the advantage, but those circumstances are not as likely to occur as often as gun proponents would have you think. Law Enforcement trainers know what many civilian-trained handgunners don't. Their tests prove, in actual self-defense situations, if you do not have your hand on your firearm ready to draw at the moment a blade is produced, you need an average of 15-20 feet ( the zone ) to double-tap before the distance can be effectively closed by the knifer - 15 feet! Law Enforcement trainers also know that 87% of all shootings occur within four feet! The number of shootings within the zone is well above 90%! It simply boils down to this: inside the zone, whoever has their weapon in hand first has the advantage . Since Knifers can unobtrusively palm their blade or use any unsuspecting sharp instrument for attack, and handgunners cannot in comparison walk around holding their gun, in all but the rarest situations, trained knifers have an advantage in making a first strike in the zone. Furthermore, it is important to recognize in the few instances when a shot or two did hit center mass, in some cases they were so close it resulted in a mutual kill predicament. So it is vital to also judge your success not only by whether you killed your attacker but also by whether or not he killed you.
Further advantages confirming the practical logic of the knife include: it is practical to carry at all times, it is legal if chosen accordingly, you can carry several knives with ease, they are easy to obtain, and a pointed pen or similar improvised instrument can be held in plain view anywhere. Compared to guns, using a knife requires substantially less fine motor skills to employ effectively under stress. It is much more difficult to disarm, it defeats soft body armor, there is no risk of shoot-through or accidental discharges, and it never runs out of ammo. Another significant advantage is that knives are much more versatile in allowing escalation of force. In close range, a bullet travels at one consistent high speed, and it is quite difficult to shoot someone “just a little” compared with a trained Knifer's ability to largely determine the force of a knife strike against its available targets. Also, a gun is often a handicap if one is forced to defend himself in any situation where bystanders make it impossible to fire a handgun, yet the blade remains ever vigilant protecting you.
After analyzing the facts of knives vs. guns without buying into outdated clichés, we find that every weapon has its advantages, and for most persons the knife unquestionably exceeds all others, including guns, for practical, versatile, and effective self-protection in virtually every situation. While Knifers continue to respect the sound advice of the adage when it applies, knifers warn in return, “Don't bring a gun to a knifefight either.”
"There are more things on this planet with fangs, claws, poisons, and scales, than there are things that are warm, fuzzy, and full of love. It's just a simple fact." - James Keating
September 9th, 2005 10:33 PM
I remember reading once that among police officers who were shot in the line of duty, they had something like a 30.2% mortality rate.
For officers stabbed in the line of duty, mortality rate was 30.1%.
September 12th, 2005 11:39 AM
No real surprise there. Bullets are designed to kill primarily by neurogenic shock (inducing such trauma that the body is unable to direct itself), penetrating (cardiogenic) trauma second. A blade is a penetrating "projectile" that you can direct after it has entered the target. You can survive multiple torso HG hits, it is much less likely that you will survive multiple, wrenching, torso stabs.
Originally Posted by Euclidean
September 12th, 2005 12:36 PM
The usefulness of any defensive implement (shotgun, rifle, handgun, knife, OC or ASP) depends on 3 factors:
1) the defender/user;
2) the assailant(s); and
3) the circumstances of the assault.
A determined defender vs. an unarmed (larger, stronger, etc.) assailant? A sharp folder should be an excellent weapon. The assault will be at "bad breath distance (e.g., if the assailant can reach you, your knife can reach him!). There is no reliable way to disarm a knife-armed defender without being cut! If the defender is truly determined, the assailant is doomed.
A rifle-armed assailant at 100 yards? Okay, I'm being ridiculous . . .
Granted, my handgun is my first choice, as it offers effective deployment from contact range to 50 yards. However, when I'm walking through a relatively empty parking lot, I'm likely to have my Yojimbo palmed in my weak hand. If I'm jumped, and either have no time to draw or if the assailant impairs use of my strong hand, I've got an alternative.
Basically, as already mentioned, the overwhelming majority of assaults do take place at extremely close quarters (it's difficult to realistically demand someone's wallet from across a four-lane highway!). Alertness is paramount. Having a weapon in hand is much better than having to clear a cover garment & draw a .45, in my own judgment.
September 12th, 2005 11:35 PM
I carry a Spyderco Military every day, and am very confident I could draw and deploy the knife with one hand and do some damage, if I were forced to. I don't want to though.
Let me tell you one thing, however. Being a former crime reporter gave me access to some very graphic crime photos.
I can assure you a knife can do fatal damage rather quickly. And it really doesn't have to be a super duper tactical folder or fighting knife. The most graphic murder photo I've ever seen was a crime perpetrated with a small, serrated paring knife taken from the drawer of the victim.
Oh yeah...a knife can do the job. That is why you must take the threat from ANY knife wielding goblin very seriously.
September 13th, 2005 12:10 AM
Knives are very effective, both as psychological and physical weapons. Many people fear being cut or burned more than they fear being shot, because being shot is unreal to them... they've never been shot so they can't really imagine what it's like. Most beople have been cut or burned, so they can extrapolate the minor kitchen injury up to something like having your am or side slashed open.
In a class I had regarding counter-knife tactics the instructor said something like: "If a knife wielder is within 7 yards of you and your firearm is holstered, you have to accept the fact you're going to be cut. If you keep your wits about you you can come out on top, but you have to realize you're going to get hurt, that way when it happens you won't be suprised and your opponent won't gain an even bigger advantage."
"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
September 15th, 2005 10:44 PM
Justin, I train with Professor Sotis once a month myself!
I was a member of the International Blade Fighters Guild for almost 2 years.
Great Guy!.....Deadly too!
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