Expandable batons in Virginia . . . LEOS know ??

This is a discussion on Expandable batons in Virginia . . . LEOS know ?? within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Randy Your answer on knives is going to come from case law. This guy was carrying a large steak knife... FindLaw for ...

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Thread: Expandable batons in Virginia . . . LEOS know ??

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    Your answer on knives is going to come from case law.

    This guy was carrying a large steak knife...
    FindLaw for Legal Professionals - Case Law, Federal and State Resources, Forms, and Code
    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova
    In addition, the circumstances surrounding Goodwin's possession of the knife, a factor that Delcid mentions, id. at 18, 526 S.E.2d at 275, does not support the conclusion that it was in fact intended as a weapon. The evidence proved the injured man was hit with a 2-by-4 board, and it does not prove Goodwin used the knife in any manner.

    The knife that Goodwin possessed does not fall within the prohibited class of knives. True, it has a sharp point, a sharp edge, and a sturdy blade. But so do many pocketknives, which Wood held to be excluded from the coverage of this statute. A properly maintained knife is sharp and intrinsically is capable of being used for either cutting or stabbing. However, as explained in Ricks and Wood, simply because a knife is sharp does not mean it is included within the statutory class prescribed by Code  18.2-308.2.

    For these reasons, we reverse the conviction.
    Reversed.

    This one had a kitchen knife.
    FindLaw for Legal Professionals - Case Law, Federal and State Resources, Forms, and Code
    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova
    Conversely, the legislature intended "to exclude from concealed weapons statutes innocuous household and industrial knives which may be carried for legitimate purposes."

    Richards, 18 Va. App. at 246 n.2, 443 S.E.2d at 179 n.2. Therefore, knives used for innocent purposes, rather than knives being used to carry out a criminal design, are less likely to fall into the category of "weapons" regardless of whether they have an intimidating physical appearance.

    See, e.g., Wood v. Henry County Public Schools, 255 Va. 85, 88, 95, 495 S.E.2d 255, 257, 261 (1998) (deciding that a pocketknife was not a weapon when appellant carried it on a school-sponsored field trip to a jail and handed the knife to the deputy); Ricks v. Commonwealth, 27 Va. App. 442, 499 S.E.2d 575 (1998) (finding that a kitchen knife with a four-inch blade was not a weapon when appellant was arrested for driving while intoxicated and the knife was found in a search of appellant's vehicle).
    One of our magistrates issued a warrant for a violation of 18.2-308 under the 'like kind' clause for someone who had concealed an ASP baton. I don't know what happened with this charge when it went to court.

    Randy
    Yeah but in the cases they specify WHY each was charged for the concealed weapons and the steak knife one was REVERSED. Read the quotes from the cases.
    The kitchen knife one ...if you read the whole thing, did get affirmed, however they specifically stated that they were not only looking at the fact that he concealed a kitchen knife, but that he was using it to effect a robbery. There was also a dissenting opinion in this case as to whether or not this really counts as concealed weapon.

    I'll have to look for that ASP one. That one could be an interesting read.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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  3. #32
    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    I have read the cases. I found them interesting and that's the only reason I posted them. There's another one I know of that's even more interesting and, as soon as I can dig it up, I'll post it too. These weren't meant to be supporting arguments for either side of the ongoing knife debate - just a look at how strange case law can be.

    Randy

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    Has it been mentioned yet that use of batons constitute use of of deadly force? Because, you know, it is?

    If you're looking for a less-than-lethal alternative, you're looking into chemical sprays and electronic devices. Not batons.


    -B

    The use of a baton is not automatically lethal force. Hitting someone in the head, yes, the thigh, no. Depends on where you hit them. If using a baton was always deadly force, LEO's wouldn't carry them as an option to consider before the use of the sidearm.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    I have read the cases. I found them interesting and that's the only reason I posted them. There's another one I know of that's even more interesting and, as soon as I can dig it up, I'll post it too. These weren't meant to be supporting arguments for either side of the ongoing knife debate - just a look at how strange case law can be.

    Randy
    Agreed. No problem. I'm going to try to see if I can find any records on that baton arrest when I have time today.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array Bob O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonofASniper View Post
    Your misunderstanding the differences. No head shots was in reference to using an ASP or some kind of a baton. Not a firearm.

    Also understand the difference between lethal and non lethal force. When you deploy a firearm, it is automatically considered lethal force. So it does not matter where you may shoot the person. Just the fact that you are using a firearm puts you in the lethal force category.

    An ASP can be considered a non-lethal weapon. However, the ASP has the potential to cross over into the lethal weapon category depending on how and where you strike the person. Hence no headshots. My department's policy was no strikes on any body part above the waist.

    This is why I say if you are not trained and certified to use those types of weapons, they are more of a liability than an asset. You would probably have a better legal defense if you carried a baseball bat.
    Ohhhhhhh, now I get it - thanks! A baseball bat strike to the head is considered "non-lethal", but an ACP to the head is considered "lethal"? What about a tire iron - lethal or non-lethal? Do you know of a list somewhere that shows which objects are considered "lethal" and which are "non-lethal", and what parts of the body they may be applied and still remain non-lethal? I'd much rather use the most effective, but still considered legally non-lethal weapons. Thanks...
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"
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  7. #36
    Member Array Jason Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob O View Post
    Ohhhhhhh, now I get it - thanks! A baseball bat strike to the head is considered "non-lethal", but an ACP to the head is considered "lethal"? What about a tire iron - lethal or non-lethal? Do you know of a list somewhere that shows which objects are considered "lethal" and which are "non-lethal", and what parts of the body they may be applied and still remain non-lethal? I'd much rather use the most effective, but still considered legally non-lethal weapons. Thanks...
    I hope that was all sarcasm. Why do you even bring up a bat. Maybe I just don't get your humor. If you can stop being a smart aleck for one second and listen you will learn that it is the official policy of the fed gov and most states that properly used an expandable baton or night stick blow does not constitute deadly force, whether or not you want to be smart about it. Any rigid object used to deliver a blow to the head would be considered deadly force.-Jay

  8. #37
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    heres the deal tho what if you loose it. know you got some one hitting you with it. its not a one-hitter-quiter like a pistol can be.


    imho save your money and buy the c2 tasser unless you are a LEO the get the real thing. i carry my tasser everywhere i carry my pistol. when it comes down to it, i pull the tasser first then advise that im a officer. if the tasser dosn't work(dout that) then ill go lethal. 90% of the time you dont even have to fire the tasser just take the cartridge off and rack it off. they will know what it is and run.

    i know most dont own a tasser yet but soon i think it will be just like carring ammo.

    plus whille thier flopping om the ground it gives them time to think about what they did.

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