Expandable batons in Virginia . . . LEOS know ??

This is a discussion on Expandable batons in Virginia . . . LEOS know ?? within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm looking for another less-than-lethal force alternative to just oc spray or a kubaton when I venture into areas that prohibit ccw. According to VA ...

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Thread: Expandable batons in Virginia . . . LEOS know ??

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    Member Array JeffLrrp's Avatar
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    Expandable batons in Virginia . . . LEOS know ??

    I'm looking for another less-than-lethal force alternative to just oc spray or a kubaton when I venture into areas that prohibit ccw. According to VA Code 18.2.308 (the section on concealed weapons) a spring stick is a stick that has a rapidly telescoping body that releases at the push of a button and rises with a spring. If ASP expandables are manual (i.e. you have to use a wrist/arm flick to get it out) wouldn't they be legal to carry in VA.

    Any LEOs have a clue . . .
    Thanks

    Jeff
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    VIP Member Array Ridgeline's Avatar
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    I can't speak for VA, but not in Texas for some strange reason. Although I have two.
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    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    I am not speaking whether you can or cannot, but I would recommend that you don't unless you have some training and certification. LE agencies usually have some very strict policies governing the use of batons. My old department was getting to the point of viewing them as more of a liability than an asset.

    If for some reason you use one, it could be considered a deadly weapon. Then you may find yourself defending against the question of why you deployed lethal force with a blunt instrument that you were not trained, certified, or licensed to carry.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

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    Senior Member Array rhinokrk's Avatar
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    If your state refers to a lead/metal pipe as illegal, it's illegal. Call your DPS and ask. Huge +1 on training, head shots are a big no no. A baton is still concidered a deadly weapon... how 'bout pepper spray?
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    Good question JeffLrrp, I've often wondered the same thing, is it legal to own one? I believe that carrying the ASP is considered carrying a weapon in VA. The law only allows for handgun carry under VA CCW. Carrying the ASP concealed would then amount to a concealed carry violation, right?

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    Senior Member Array Pete Zaria's Avatar
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    Bear Spray?

    Taser?

    A good fixed blade or auto-opener?

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    The FTO I teach CHP courses with says that any telescoping baton is not allowed for concealed carry. VA specifically wrote the law for concealed handguns only. There is a bit further down in your code cite that states other weapons of like kind or some such verbiage. Sort of a catch all that they use to get anyone concealing other than a handgun.

    My lawyer was a bit less definitive, but asked if I really wanted to be a test case. He was willing to represent me if I was willing to draw the charge. I declined.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    The FTO I teach CHP courses with says that any telescoping baton is not allowed for concealed carry. VA specifically wrote the law for concealed handguns only. There is a bit further down in your code cite that states other weapons of like kind or some such verbiage. Sort of a catch all that they use to get anyone concealing other than a handgun.

    My lawyer was a bit less definitive, but asked if I really wanted to be a test case. He was willing to represent me if I was willing to draw the charge. I declined.
    Scott,
    I have heard a Very knowledgeable VA DCJS instructor put this spin on it which makes sense. Virginia is a Commonwealth and the way the code is written if it is not in the code book then "technically" its not against the law. From this person I'm under the impression that the only illegal item is a spring stick not a a ASP or expandanble baton. I would contact an attorney for I am not an attorney, but I'm am under the impression that they are not illegal to carry because its specifially makes reference to a Spring Stick not an ASP.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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    Member Array tennvol's Avatar
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    Your permit (and mine) say license to carry a concealed HANDGUN. Auto knives, ASP type batons, etc are no-go's.

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tennvol View Post
    Your permit (and mine) say license to carry a concealed HANDGUN. Auto knives, ASP type batons, etc are no-go's.

    I willl totally believe you if you show me the code that states this.

    The thing is Pocket knives are not covered, but its legal to carry those.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    again I'm not a lawer however here you go.

    LIS > Code of Virginia > 18.2-308

    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

    I would say its a very close since it has that clause in their about similiar however, it doesn't specificallly mention batons. It says Spring stick which very differn't then an ASP.

    If you took the ASP= a Spring Stick approach, or similar is similar, I could argue that a Kershaw auto assist is similiar to a switchblade.

    Its a touchy subject, again I wouldn't want to be the test case but based on how this reads I don't think its technically illegal. Just my opinion.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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    Member Array Jason Rogers's Avatar
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    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

    My read is that you could carry an expandable batton openly. This section could be used to prohibit an ASP from being concealed.- Jay

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Rogers View Post
    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

    My read is that you could carry an expandable batton openly. This section could be used to prohibit an ASP from being concealed.- Jay
    Jason,
    I"m not trying to be agrumentative/ insulting, however,

    any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; What about a set of keys with a kubaton on it.

    ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack;
    A pocket knife is similiar to dirk.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying this:

    A springstick has a Spring, a release, and working mechnasim.

    (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty

    A ASP is a Hollow tube that expands due to gravity.

    There is more of an argument that says it is unlike it vs. it is similiar to.

    I see no mention in the above about Batons, CLUBS, PIPES etc...

    I'll be honost I REALLY DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER! I'm just relaying the argument that I heard from this DCJS instructor and his side made sense that makes sense. There not Illegal.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

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    Member Array Plan B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    The FTO I teach CHP courses with says that any telescoping baton is not allowed for concealed carry. VA specifically wrote the law for concealed handguns only. There is a bit further down in your code cite that states other weapons of like kind or some such verbiage. Sort of a catch all that they use to get anyone concealing other than a handgun.

    My lawyer was a bit less definitive, but asked if I really wanted to be a test case. He was willing to represent me if I was willing to draw the charge. I declined.
    LOL - I guess you weren't feelin' lucky ... I wouldn't have been either.

    I do, though, see some amount of value in having something like that on you in limited situations (or one in your car). You can stay away from the head and greatly reduce the risk of causing death, and you don't have to worry about your background with a baton (in theory, I suppose you could miss and hit someone else, but clearly not as likely as a bullet missing and going ???).

    Plan B

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