Some basic thoughts on eged weapon defense

This is a discussion on Some basic thoughts on eged weapon defense within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I break edged weapon training into two areas, spontaneous edged weapon attack defense and using a knife to defend yourself. There are three parts to ...

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Thread: Some basic thoughts on eged weapon defense

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Some basic thoughts on eged weapon defense

    I break edged weapon training into two areas, spontaneous edged weapon attack defense and using a knife to defend yourself. There are three parts to an attack, accessing, deployed and attacking. Knowing the preparatory movements required to draw a weapon are important. That can allow you to foul the draw and make it possible for you to never have to defend against the blade. Most robberies and things of that nature will have you facing a deployed weapon meaning the guy will only threaten and menace you with it. The knife being a contact distance weapon requires you to be within contact distance using your open hands or other tool to reach your attacker. If the knife is only deployed you have little to work with and will likely only result in you getting cut. Attacking is the BG actually trying to cut or stab you. In response to this-
    Move off center
    Try not to get cut
    Get cut as little as possible
    Control the weapon hand and do violence upon them until they are no longer a threat

    Research shows that the last few wounds are the ones that prove fatal. This means that you need to do whatever it takes to end it as fast as possible. I believe that your initial response to a edged weapon attack is likely to be open handed. If at conversation distance you are lucky enough to draw a knife or pistol it will do little to stop the mechanism of the attack. Even worse because of ritualized combat you will be more likely to focus on your tool use and stay to the front instead of adhering to the first rule and moving off the center line.

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    Having carried several badly cut people to the ER in the back of a patrol car, you can bet that I have a very healthy respect for blades.

    If I even THINK a knife is involved to somwhere I am responding to, the gun is in the hand when I get out of the car. We aint playing cut me.

    Most of them will say by the time they actually saw the knife, it was tool late to do much about it.
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    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    That is definitly worth expounding upon my understanding it is critical see when you opponent is getting ready to strike, right foot sliding back, blading you, strong hand moving to weapons area, waist, rear hip, or pocket or shifting into a combat stance. That is when you want to act not after the weapon is drawn. Many say you should
    A) step back off center out of range draw your weapon or
    B) strike/shove with your weak hand, move off center while drawing your weapon.
    IMO opinion as they begin to make their move shove them hard as you can with both hands in the sternum chest area. Than draw your weapon, while moving off center. You are than using full force and concentration on each move rather than half force and divided attention. This will knock them off balance or with luck down onto the ground either way they will need to recover. While they are recovering is when you can draw your weapon.

    If you do not get immediate compliance with your orders do not hesitate. Attack with as much vicious violence as you can manage. Precision is not needed extreme violence of force is.

    Know your strike areas face, temple, throat, eyes, left side of their upper body, under their left arm pit, slashing strikes on the inside of their legs to their groin, deep horizontal slashes across the stomach are effective ways to get compliance.

    If they have drawn their weapon or come at you weapon drawn use a shield if available a coat shirt book anything but do not spend time looking for one. DO NOT go on the defensive DO NOT back peddle that can cause you to trip or stumble and that will be the end of it. Stay on the offensive. If you must grab the blade step into them as they try to pull the knife away from you use the leverage point the blade away from you. Stab hack slash them while you are doing that until they let go of the blade

    A fight with a knife is not a West Side story dance. Grab yank pull your opponent close to you stab hack slash with all the force and violence you can manage. Hit them like an industrial sewing machine do not stop until they cease to be a threat. Remember the stories of the guy who stabbed his opponent 150 plus times? That is the guy that survived you must be that guy. Only in the movies and the highly skilled stab someone once or twice before they fall down dead.

    Let me acknowledge this is an opinion based on my experience I am not an expert. Each time I have had a knife pulled on me I have walked away cut up and stabbed. Once with a hatchet in my skull but I did walk way. You would be better off training with someone who manages not to get cut up. Which is why I carry a gun. It takes way to long to heal at my age
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    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    When I got cut, I didn't have any time....like said before, I was cut before I knew there was a knife....then stabbed in the leg. It was a horrid event in my life....the reason I CC now.

    I had baggy shirt on that took most of the initial slice. My defence? Martial arts...I kicked in the groin ( he stabbed in leg), punched (palm of the hand) center chest, and then a round house to the head then I ran like a little______...boy was I a bloody mess..the running didn't help staunch blood coming from my leg....

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    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogbones View Post
    When I got cut, I didn't have any time....like said before, I was cut before I knew there was a knife....then stabbed in the leg. It was a horrid event in my life....the reason I CC now.
    Exactly why as Merop said
    Knowing the preparatory movements required to draw a weapon are important
    I would change important to critical. As we know had the knives been a gun we would be dead, as it is you and I are lucky to have lived. Making our move before a weapon is displayed is the best defense.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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    I carry a gun and a knife. I will never reach for the knife first, it's more of a back up tool. Folks, a knife fight can last three minutes or more! I know I don't have the stamina to go two - three minutes all pumped up, and with cuts on my arms or body. LongRider so far as I am concerned has the best advice. "Shove them hard as you can with both hands in the sternum chest area. Than draw your weapon, while moving off center". Stay out of knife fights! They are bloody, brutal, and deadly!
    Y'all be safe now, ya hear!

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    Member Array carver's Avatar
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    mercop
    You state "Knowing the preparatory movements required to draw a weapon are important". Could you please expound on this a little further? I am sure that I am not understanding you on this one. I carry a Gerber ATS-34 in my right front pocket, and can draw, open, and cut you in less than a second, at contact distance. Unless you can read my mind, there is no way you could stop me. Not trying to be a smart a&^ here, I really want to know/learn more. Personally, I have never been in a knife fight, and don't want to be in one! But sometimes the things you know can come in handy. Not as handy as things you train for, but I think sometimes anything helps.
    Y'all be safe now, ya hear!

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    After a few years of research I came up with the following and added it to our officer survival course. I will leave in the part about foot chases since I know when have lots of police here. Get a friend and test some of this out.

    93%+ of the people in the world are right handed. This means their left is their reaction side and their right is there strong side. Whether you are a good guy or a bad guy just about all primary deadly weapons are carried between the nipple line and the waistband/pockets.

    If you are involved in a verbal altercation with someone at conversation distance it is very probable that they will have there hands hovering between in front of their body between their nipple line and waistband. If they want to strike you with an open hand attack their right hand will make a furtive movement high right. If they are trying to access a weapon their right hand will make a furtive movement low right. For the police, if they are going to run they will drop their left shoulder and break left to run.

    As soon as they make the furtive movement towards down with their right hand you need to be on them like ugly on an ape. It matters little what weapon they have if they do not get it out.

    Close the distance moving towards your attacker's right (non reaction side).

    This only works with 93%+ of people. I am working on the other 7% :) Play with this a bit. Soon you will respond to the slightest movement and be able to foul their access. It cut our foot pursuits to just about nothing. When the guy broke to run the officer would just trip or push the guy down. Your cover officer should be positioned to the bad guys left. If he wants to strike the contact officer he has to give the cover officer his back, if he wants to run he does so right into the cover officer.

    Science and body mechanics are your friends.

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    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Science and body mechanics are your friends.

    AKA.....perception

    In my martial arts class....I was taught to stare in the eyes and use peripheral vision to notice any movement twards an offensive start. Mainly shoulder, core body movement.

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    I know people talk about staring in the eyes. That might be a possible in a sterile dojo setting with one attacker but in the street there are likely to be more than one and you also have environmental concerns. You don't want to "stare" at anything. You want to scan to better perceive furtive movements. Nobody except for my mother in law has the power to kill with her eyes, the hands kill. And the hands are connected to the elbow which is the key to controlling the human body when it comes to weapon defense.

    Humans are sight driven predators. As you are driving down the road and something darts across your eyes will automatically follow it. Again as you hone your OODA loop you will pick up on the smallest ques making it fell like yo have seen the show before and know what is coming next.

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    Member Array carver's Avatar
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    mercop
    Thanks for explaining. I understand better now what you were saying. Makes sence to me now.
    Y'all be safe now, ya hear!

    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    There is a problem with having over confidence in your tools and putting all your eggs in one basket. Had I not been able to transition to my ASP that woman would have been dead because she would have had the time to get up.

    Teaching people to move during conflict especially when they are using non impact/edged tools takes a lot of time. When you add into the fact that they innately know that they need to be close to the attacker for the tool to be effective it is even harder.

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    Member Array houdini's Avatar
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    I carry a knife all the time, but I took a class in it.

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    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    I know people talk about staring in the eyes. That might be a possible in a sterile dojo setting with one attacker but in the street there are likely to be more than one and you also have environmental concerns. You don't want to "stare" at anything. You want to scan to better perceive furtive movements. Nobody except for my mother in law has the power to kill with her eyes, the hands kill. And the hands are connected to the elbow which is the key to controlling the human body when it comes to weapon defense.

    Humans are sight driven predators. As you are driving down the road and something darts across your eyes will automatically follow it. Again as you hone your OODA loop you will pick up on the smallest ques making it fell like yo have seen the show before and know what is coming next.
    Mercop, I was in an actual knife fight against two people. What I was trained in kept me alive. Was able to defend myself, break the attack, and made a run for it (wounded in process). All happened on a golf course no less..... By staring in the eyes, using peripheral, having perception, and the knowing space around me (requires discipline), I was able to pick up on certain movements that kept me out of the coffin, and my shoes with me...they were after my shoes.

    Sparing in my garage with fellow buddies, and recording (then reviewing mistakes and what not) it was what ingrained those tactics so if when I needed to use them they work just like instincts...I don't ever remeber thinking about anything...all just happened.

    I do understand, and appreciate you bringing this up, but most of what you're posting will go out the window when it's in the real.... right in front of you...Must train those tactics cause talking it doesn't work.

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    "I do understand, and appreciate you bringing this up, but most of what you're posting will go out the window when it's in the real.... right in front of you...Must train those tactics cause talking it doesn't work."


    I am glad you did well in your one incident. One exception does not break a rule. The principles I teach are based on more than one incident or sparing in a garage with my buddies.

    What do you do when you are cannot see their eyes?

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