Reverse edge ? - Page 3

Reverse edge ?

This is a discussion on Reverse edge ? within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by United93 Yes, and you must therefore use the tool that has the attributes that you will most likely need. A fight, as ...

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by United93 View Post
    Yes, and you must therefore use the tool that has the attributes that you will most likely need. A fight, as I think you found out when you were 19, is often not conducted at medium range, with the combatants swiping at each other. Often, it ends up in close or on the ground. There, better close range power and muscle rending ability would certainly be a plus. In addition, as someone pointed out, the reverse-edge method allows one to be in a boxing stance with the hands close to the face.
    1) You're making some pretty broad assumptions about my fighting style. If you were to go against an opponent who fought blade forward and assumed what you're assuming above...yeah. 2) I agree completely with the close-in and ground aspects. Of course, you can do plenty of damage in other ways with the blade forward at close and contact ranges as any violent felon will tell you. 3) I don't use the boxing stance so...yeah.

    I'm not saying that the trailing blade/inverted edge stuff is crap here. It's obviously worked well for quite a few folks who have use the technique(s) to great effect. What I am saying to not miss the tree for the branch you're on. There are plenty of ways to make things scream and bleed and just because one works, it doesn't mean that everything else doesn't and/or doesn't do it as well via a different method.

    To be frank, the main difference between my own "style" (if a putz like me can call the barely-trained flailing he does a "style") vs this branch of the trailing blade crowd is I prefer (read: not used exclusively based upon the situation as it evolves) to work with my blade forward. I cut on the backstroke. I can keep up fairly well with the ol' grab 'n stab game. I work largely with the tip as I find a stab to be faster and more deceptive than a slash.
    That said, I'm also a student of other martial arts and this training has opened my eyes to a few things that I don't like about trailing blade stabbing/backslashing as a focus. It's a personal thing, not a sting against those who use this effective method, and it's what is keeping my blade facing mostly forward.


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    One of the benefits of teaching standard grip is that most individuals have been using a knife in standard grip for as long as they have used a knife. Reverse grip skills (edge in or out)
    For the sake of clarity, we're talking about reverse edge (what my instructor calls an inverted grip) rather than reverse grip.
    requires learning a whole new set of mechanics. Taking existing skills and fine tuning them to make them more effective is an easier process then developing a whole new set of skills.

    ...but if I had a student with limited time to quickly learn a basic set of skills I'd focus on teaching standard grip skills.
    I have to disagree here. I took an eight hour edged weapons course recently. It was my first. All of my previous knife use experience was with a traditional saber type grip. It wasn't at all difficult to train myself to take an inverted grip. It only took a few repetitions to get it down.
    Of course the wider your range of skill sets the better...

    Definitely.

  3. #33
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    1) You're making some pretty broad assumptions about my fighting style. If you were to go against an opponent who fought blade forward and assumed what you're assuming above...yeah. 2) I agree completely with the close-in and ground aspects. Of course, you can do plenty of damage in other ways with the blade forward at close and contact ranges as any violent felon will tell you. 3) I don't use the boxing stance so...yeah.

    I'm not saying that the trailing blade/inverted edge stuff is crap here. It's obviously worked well for quite a few folks who have use the technique(s) to great effect. What I am saying to not miss the tree for the branch you're on. There are plenty of ways to make things scream and bleed and just because one works, it doesn't mean that everything else doesn't and/or doesn't do it as well via a different method.

    To be frank, the main difference between my own "style" (if a putz like me can call the barely-trained flailing he does a "style") vs this branch of the trailing blade crowd is I prefer (read: not used exclusively based upon the situation as it evolves) to work with my blade forward. I cut on the backstroke. I can keep up fairly well with the ol' grab 'n stab game. I work largely with the tip as I find a stab to be faster and more deceptive than a slash.
    That said, I'm also a student of other martial arts and this training has opened my eyes to a few things that I don't like about trailing blade stabbing/backslashing as a focus. It's a personal thing, not a sting against those who use this effective method, and it's what is keeping my blade facing mostly forward.

    Fair enough.

    I don't think I am making any assumptions about your fighting style, although I might in the next sentence.

    If your ready position involves holding your hands at or around waist level, my MMA instructor and a sparring session might serve to jolt you into reality.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by United93 View Post
    Fair enough.

    I don't think I am making any assumptions about your fighting style, although I might in the next sentence.

    If your ready position involves holding your hands at or around waist level, my MMA instructor and a sparring session might serve to jolt you into reality.
    Not the case in terms of my ready position.

    As for the MMA trainer bit, I was part of the MMA game before there was a MMA game. At least as MMA is recognized today. I also have some issues with the way MMA has evolved into what it is broadly recognized as today, which is why I'm not part of that group anymore.

    Besides, we both know that self-defense and sparring have about as much in common as a prison riot and a kendo tournament.

  5. #35
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    I don't know what gripes you have with MMA, but I see it as an effective and realistic blend of several useful styles, minus all the meditation/religious crap that apparently permeates many eastern MA styles.

    As for sparring not being close to a real SD unarmed combat situation, I would say it never is the same, but can be closer than you think. If you blend kicks, punches, knees, elbows and grappling, and if you have an opponent who is strong, skilled and aggressive, you can really test the effectiveness of your style. If you focus on high spinning kicks and other flashy moves then I can understand a huge difference between your style and real life.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unloved View Post
    For the sake of clarity, we're talking about reverse edge (what my instructor calls an inverted grip) rather than reverse grip.
    The Southnarc material I've seen was reverse grip-edge in orientation. If you're referring to "standard grip" with edge up I would say that as far as the issue of natural mechanics is concerned my comments apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by unloved View Post
    I have to disagree here. I took an eight hour edged weapons course recently. It was my first. All of my previous knife use experience was with a traditional saber type grip. It wasn't at all difficult to train myself to take an inverted grip. It only took a few repetitions to get it down.

    Definitely.
    Your personal experience is of course valid. My comments are based on having spend thousands of hours training people with all levels of experience in edged weapons self-defense. I have a pretty clear understanding of the natural mechanics most people employ when they start edged weapons training (standard grip, edge down). Change that orientation (reverse grip edge in or out) and for most it begins a whole new process of burning it a new set of mechanics needed to deploy an knife in reverse grip effectively.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    The Southnarc material I've seen was reverse grip-edge in orientation.
    I learned something new today.
    Your post inspired me to do a little research. Everything I've seen of Southnarc's methods previous to my Google session was standard grip edge up.
    If you're referring to "standard grip" with edge up...
    I am referring to standard grip, edge up. Sorry for any misunderstanding between us.
    I would say that as far as the issue of natural mechanics is concerned my comments apply.
    I amiably disagree. I and 8 other people with a wide spectrum of edged weapons experience, (none for me, extensive for others, and everything in between) developed proficiency over just a few hours.

    I should mention that mercop's IET is edge driven in contrast to southnarc's point driven technique.The natural mechanics of employing a knife in inverted grip are just that, natural. It's just reaching out and pulling back. Deployment of a folder to an inverted grip just takes a little practice. Deployment of a fixed blade to an inverted grip requires only a change in how it's carried.

    With a limited amount of time to devote to learning and maintaining effective edged weapon skills, mercop's Inverted Edge Tactics are where I'm going to concentrate my efforts. I'd recommend IET for anyone at a skill level similar to my own. It is entirely possible to learn how to effectively employ a knife in a short period of time. For people more skilled than I, George can show you some things worthy of anyone's "toolbox"
    Your personal experience is of course valid. My comments are based on having spend thousands of hours training people with all levels of experience in edged weapons self-defense. I have a pretty clear understanding of the natural mechanics most people employ when they start edged weapons training (standard grip, edge down). Change that orientation (reverse grip edge in or out) and for most it begins a whole new process of burning it a new set of mechanics needed to deploy an knife in reverse grip effectively.
    I'll defer to your experience on this as I have none with reverse grip. As I stated above, we had a misunderstanding of exactly what we're discussing .

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    "I amiably disagree...mercop's Inverted Edge Tactics are where I'm going to concentrate my efforts..."
    If it works for you that's what counts.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    OK, my $.02. First of all regardless of what people think they will do in a real situation what I have found from watching lots of people doing lots of force on force has evidenced a few things.

    The first is that when responding to an attack, especially when moving backward people will slice and slash...not stab.

    The slashes are usually superficial across the chest and back as the attacker turns.

    With firearms you can do shoot / don't shoot. How do you teach cut / don't cut. With research showing that during critical situations many people never shoot even when justified what do we do?

    IET allows you to land serious cuts to arteries while in the defensive mode, trying to get away by cutting the person off of you.

    As a trainer I refuse to tell students that they need a specialized blade or dedicate time to one myself. IET can be done with anything from a Spyderco Rescue to K-Bar...any knife you pick up.

    Since we also cover criminal and civil liability in our courses I am also hesitant to advocate point driven methods and they do not easily lend themselves to a measured response. How many times do you stab someone after they are no longer a threat? Stabs are more often seen as offensive and slashes defensive. Your moral obligation should be to be dedicated to stop the attack no matter what it takes including being prepared to take a life. Taking a life should be avoided for your criminal, civil and spiritual well being. Any talk to the contrary from someone who does not know what it is like to take a life is bravado BS.

    I would also be happy to field any other questions in reference to IET. Here is a short video clip-

    MODERN COMBATIVE SYSTEMS - Inverted Edge Tactics Teaser Video

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    OK, my $.02. First of all regardless of what people think they will do in a real situation what I have found from watching lots of people doing lots of force on force has evidenced a few things.

    The first is that when responding to an attack, especially when moving backward people will slice and slash...not stab.

    The slashes are usually superficial across the chest and back as the attacker turns.

    With firearms you can do shoot / don't shoot. How do you teach cut / don't cut. With research showing that during critical situations many people never shoot even when justified what do we do?

    IET allows you to land serious cuts to arteries while in the defensive mode, trying to get away by cutting the person off of you.

    As a trainer I refuse to tell students that they need a specialized blade or dedicate time to one myself. IET can be done with anything from a Spyderco Rescue to K-Bar...any knife you pick up.

    Since we also cover criminal and civil liability in our courses I am also hesitant to advocate point driven methods and they do not easily lend themselves to a measured response. How many times do you stab someone after they are no longer a threat? Stabs are more often seen as offensive and slashes defensive. Your moral obligation should be to be dedicated to stop the attack no matter what it takes including being prepared to take a life. Taking a life should be avoided for your criminal, civil and spiritual well being. Any talk to the contrary from someone who does not know what it is like to take a life is bravado BS.

    I would also be happy to field any other questions in reference to IET. Here is a short video clip-

    MODERN COMBATIVE SYSTEMS - Inverted Edge Tactics Teaser Video
    Thanks for the info, mercop. I agree completely with everything above.
    I would, however, add that everything has to be measured in response along a gradiated curve to minimize legal repercusions.

    My personal use of force continuum with a blade is (if I have enough time to go through it all):
    If a soft gate and a inconfrontational response/apology doesn't stop them, go to a hard gate/combative stance and a firm response. If a hard gate/combative stance and a firm voice doesn't stop them, pull the knife. If the knife, firm voice, and obvious combative stance doesn't stop them, go for defensive cuts. If the initial defensive cuts doesn't stop them, go for the grab 'n stab until they're no longer a threat.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Since we also cover criminal and civil liability in our courses I am also hesitant to advocate point driven methods and they do not easily lend themselves to a measured response.
    They are lethal force weapons. Are they supposed to be measured in their use?

    Do you just teach "Cut him a little" too?

    Lethal force is lethal force. If it is reasonable for you to employ lethal force, you don't do it in half measures.

    You are supposed to act in a manner to take another's life only when necessary...But when necessary, you do not hesitate or show mercy.

    If you are teaching people how to use a knife, you are teaching them to kill.

    Maybe to kill only when lawful to do so - but to kill none-the-less.

    That is the essence of justification defenses as self defense: To do what society ordinarily says we aught not to do, except when society tells us it's cool.

    Half measures with knives, or "measured responses" with knives lead to ER visits for the removal of knives from people anal cavity.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    How many times do you stab someone after they are no longer a threat?
    Your question is not relevant. You are not judged on the actual facts of the matter, but your action's subjective and objective reasonability.

    "Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife." Brown v. United States

    If you are teaching the legal side of this stuff, it might be nice if you knew it or explained it a bit better.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Stabs are more often seen as offensive and slashes defensive.
    Got a source for that information?

    Court cases? Professional publications? Group-think from respected knife practitioners?

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    I think what mercop is saying that if your first instinctive response to getting attacked when armed with a knife tends to be to retreat while slashing, why teach something else when it works? Most people naturally recognize that you can't get power into a punch or stab while backpedaling, so why not reinforce this by teaching them to do what comes naturally but with intent and correct technique?

    As for the rest, your self-defense case largely depends upon the initial suspicions of the responding officers much more than the facts as the facts can usually be seen from different perspectives. If your assailant has a series of cuts to the front and limbs and you've got medium-velocity spatter on you when the first officers show up and that's your story, it'll probably get them thinking that way. If your self-defense story initially starts by looking like a prison shanking with your knife and lower arm covered to the elbow in blood without any spatter but drop-pattern or arterial... Then they're gonna wonder why a reasonable person would jump on the person they're so afraid of that they had to use lethal force to prevent death or great bodily harm and D-block them until they were dead, Deader, DEADEST.

    So yes, it really does matter how the scene looks initially when the responding officers show up, contrary to what other might have told you. Massad Ayoob has an excellent book "In the Gravest Extreme" that covers this topic with firearms and also regularly shows up in various gun rags posting stories that happened in real life cases with exactly these sort of situations.

  13. #43
    Member Array motorhed66's Avatar
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    I hope no one has an ax to grind here. I would hope that none of this deteriorates into " Your Kung- fu is no good " type stuff.I believe many people have valid techniques to offer . Whats really cool about this group of people that will be participateing with George...is , that if their is an ounce of BS any "Foot,Fist Way" tom foolery it will be noticed in an instant. Being Bartenders , Door men, Security, bar owners , some cops ,firefighters...Appreciate the legality aspect of it all. I have confidence that Mercop can get us all going the right direction.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    My point is that if they no longer pose a threat you don't continue to use force or aggressive.

    My thoughts in reference to offensive cutting vs stabbing. I should explain further. My experience comes from being a ghetto cop where there are lots of cutting and stabbings that do not result in death. Many conflicts between two idiots over a rock or bottle of cheap vodka. In addition to that I was a the subject matter expert in edged weapons for my agency from adopting a folder and providing training, to being consulted in reference to edged weapon assaults. Almost across the board the weapon was a kitchen / steak knife, box cutter, or screwdriver. Once in a while maybe a cheap hunting knife or cheap folder.

    Choosing between stabbing or cutting is largely based on the type of tool carried. They slashed with box cutters and stabbed with screwdrivers. The kitchen / steak knives depended on the knife. The buffet type steak knives with serrated edges and blunt tips were very popular. They could be carried in the pocket or purse without poking though.

    I would say that of the cuttings I have personally investigated or been consulted in, about 75% of the time the first cut was and angle one traveling high right to low left. Not surprising since 93%+ of people are right handed and the round house is the most common opening punch. The round house is the kissing cousin of the angle one. The other 25% were repetitive stabs either high or low. The high ones usually landed in the arms at first and then into the torso. Maybe into the back and the person turned trying to get away. These cause lots of punctured lungs. The low ones landed in the abdomen or thighs and were usually poorly defended against.

    The most devastating non lethal cutting I ever investigating was just brutal. At about four in the morning we got a call for a cutting. Upon arrival we found a black male with an obvious box cutter slash that started from just into his scalp and across his forehead, skipping across his eye socket, cutting his nose before cutting his lip to the point where it was hanging off. The "victim" claimed it happened in front of his house but I tracked the blood to his vehicle where I recovered a loaded handgun and a bag of marijuana. Upon the arrival to of the on call detective I told them this.

    The attacker was right handed.
    The weapon was a box cutter.
    The slash likely occurred while the "victim" was seated, most likely behind the wheel of his vehicle.

    Investigation revealed that it was a drug deal gone bad. The "victim" was sitting inside of his vehicle when approached by the suspect to pick up the package. When the "victim" began to hand the package to the suspect he produced a box cutter and landed one powerful angle one slash. The "victim" gushing blood dropped the running car into drive and fled with blood pouring from his face. The attack took place in front of the suspects house, he was apprehended, he was right handed and the box cutter was seized from a grassy area next to the crime scene.

    I tell you this story to give you some of my history. As far as respected knife practitioners, and I don't consider myself one, there are few out there teaching how to use a box cutter or screwdriver. In my opinion as with all things martial too many people confuse offensive prowess with defensive skill + lots of luck.

    This is the reason why my Edged Weapon Survival Course begins the first day with Spontaneous Attack Survival for Edged Weapons. SAS is a principle based program in which we use my training and research to teach the student to use his normal stressed based responses to limit and control his exposure to edged weapon threats. This is done against small blades, not big ones. This is taught first because you much more likely to have to defend against and edged weapon before ever using one to defend yourself.

    Day two is IET. IET is more or less point shooting for knives. The idea is to cut someone off of you to survive.

    I could take the time too look up some court cases etc. Instead I will say this. What people fail to understand is how being involved in any use of force is likely to put your life under a magnifying glass. Especially civilly. Ask me how I know:( You cannot avoid all exposure but the tactics, tools and training you decide to use can limit your exposure.

    I am no expert, just motivated. Motivated to always return home to my wife, three kids, and two dogs that I love. In my heart I know that I have and innovative and reality based program that can help others return home to their families.- George

  15. #45
    New Member Array SouthNarc's Avatar
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    As a trainer I refuse to tell students that they need a specialized blade or dedicate time to one myself. IET can be done with anything from a Spyderco Rescue to K-Bar...any knife you pick up.
    Mercop I've seen you write this on a number of boards. The implication here is that someone needs a Disciple, Clinch-Pick or Spyderco P'kal to effectively use what I teach.

    Let me be clear. The reason those knives exist is because the enthusiasts in the community asked ShivWorks to produce these specialized tools. I don't care what someone uses nor do I shove any ShivWorks product down someone's throat. As a matter of fact until this post, for the most part I'm pretty forum monogamous.

    If your assailant has a series of cuts to the front and limbs and you've got medium-velocity spatter on you when the first officers show up and that's your story, it'll probably get them thinking that way. If your self-defense story initially starts by looking like a prison shanking with your knife and lower arm covered to the elbow in blood without any spatter but drop-pattern or arterial...
    Today I have 19 years on the job as a full-time police officer, the vast majority of that in narcotics and violent crime. In my experience the vast majority of "responding" officers work to first preserve life and then secure a crime scene and the overwhelming majority wouldn't be able to differentiate "medium-velocity spatter" from any other type of spatter. In 1993 I responded as a patrol officer to a quadruple homicide where everyone including the coroner, initially thought the victims had been done with a shotgun. Turns out, it was a baseball bat. Major crime scenes are documented, for the most part and conclusions
    are generally drawn by detectives later in the bull-pen. And even then, sometimes those change, as real experts like forensic pathologists are drawn in.

    IET allows you to land serious cuts to arteries while in the defensive mode, trying to get away by cutting the person off of you.
    Since we also cover criminal and civil liability in our courses I am also hesitant to advocate point driven methods and they do not easily lend themselves to a measured response.
    In addition to still being full-time as a cop, I've been an academy instructor since 1992 and in my tenure have trained over five thousand police cadets in various use of force subjects. I've also personally faced a grand jury twice on lethal force incidents. I've also testified as a SME in state and federal court in use of force incidents.

    With that being said, I challenge anyone to find a single piece of case law anywhere that indicates using a knife a particular way has been deemed to be less "life threatening" than any other way. Knives and using knives are lethal force. Period.

    People do we honestly believe that a grand jury is going to buy this? And God forbid it ever does happen. Because if it works for the citizen defendent then it will work for the scum-bag defendent once the precendent is created.

    I really don't care what people do with a knife because IMO NO knife method is reliable, and that includes what I teach. There's no ballistic value intrinsic to a knife. The vast majority of knife "stoppages" are psychological. With that being said one cannot predicate a method on the adversary's willingness to quit when he sees his own blood.

    That's why I teach the most violent aggresive method I can and teach people to close and keep going until the adversary is down. It may not be pretty....but it's honest. And to color using a knife in defense of life as anything other than frightening and visceral is disingenuous.

    One more thing. There are alot of things we do that are "instinctive" which may not be conducive to the tactical situation that we're presented. It's "instinctive" to flail around in a pool of water and then drown.....since swimming is learned.

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