Reverse edge ? - Page 5

Reverse edge ?

This is a discussion on Reverse edge ? within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 2edgesword "The standard for using them is the same as putting a bullet in someone's face - reasonable fear for your life ...

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Thread: Reverse edge ?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    "The standard for using them is the same as putting a bullet in someone's face - reasonable fear for your life or in fear of great bodily harm.

    Your argument of "using a lethal weapon in a less than lethal manner" is the same as shooting someone in the leg to make them stop."

    I'm not an attorney and you're wrong on both counts.

    A knife is a contact weapon. I have to physically hold the knife and place it where I want it on the attackers body. I have MORE control over where I inflict wounds with a knife versus aiming or pointing shooting a firearm.

    A firearm is used to transfer debilitating blute force to stop an attacker as quickly as possible. That is most effectively done by shooting center of mass. The same is NOT true with respect to a knife.

    One major aspect of the power of a knife is it's ability to sever biomechanical connections that make it possible for an attacker to weld a weapon. The most effective use of a knife is NOT to inflict blunt force trama but biomechanic trama destroying an attackers ability to extend the arm required to impliment a weapon or leg required to the mobility apply the weapon. It doesn't matter how angry or high on PCP an individual might be, if I cut his quadricep tendon he can't stand. While stabbing him in the chest ten times may eventually result in his demise, in the interm he could continue his attack and still do a lot of damage, including taking my life.

    "If you are in reasonable fear for your life or reasonable fear for your life or in fear of great bodily harm, you would have tried to put rounds into critical areas."

    If you have fear for your life you do what is most prudent to negate the cause for the fear as quickly as possible. With a firearm that means introducing blute force center of mass. With a knife it means destroying the limbs that allow the attacker to exercise that threat.

    Again, this goes back to the control issue and what constitutes the most effective use of the power of the particular weapon being deployed.

    "The law does not accept the consept of "I shot him in the leg as a way to stop the attack in a non-lethal manner with my firearm" nor does it accept "I cut him in a non-lethal manner"

    Again, I'm not an attorney but if I've heard it said once I've heard it said a thousand times "why did he have to kill him, couldn't he have shot him in the leg?" Of course this statement displays an ignorance about the reality of fire a gun while under stress and how the power of a firearm is most effectively used to stop an attack.

    But the flip-side of this is also true with respect to using a knife in self-defense. A knife can very effectively be used in a non-lethal manner based on the ability to target the weapon for biomechanic cutting. In fact it is MORE effective to incorporate a knife in this manner (biomechanic cutting) versus stabbing center of mass.

    "If you are going to use a knife, you do it with the same intent as you use a handgun with. You just target slightly differently."

    True but with some important distinctions required.

    The same flawed mindset that advocates using a firearm to shoot arms and legs expresses itself in similar fashion when discussing the most effective use of the power of an edged weapon. The most effective use of the one (a firearm to transfer energy into the center of massive of the attacker) does NOT translate into the most effective use of the other. And the most effective use of the one will more then likely also cause death while the effective use of the other will rarely cause a fatal injury.
    I'm not an attorney either but I know that if you employ a deadly weapon for any reason you have exerted deadly force.

    If you use a closed folder as an impact weapon you have exerted deadly force.


  2. #62
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    agreed

  3. #63
    New Member Array SouthNarc's Avatar
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    It doesn't matter how angry or high on PCP an individual might be, if I cut his quadricep tendon he can't stand.
    A knife can very effectively be used in a non-lethal manner based on the ability to target the weapon for biomechanic cutting. In fact it is MORE effective to incorporate a knife in this manner (biomechanic cutting) versus stabbing center of mass.
    I have MORE control over where I inflict wounds with a knife versus aiming or pointing shooting a firearm.
    The most effective use of the one (a firearm to transfer energy into the center of massive of the attacker) does NOT translate into the most effective use of the other. And the most effective use of the one will more then likely also cause death while the effective use of the other will rarely cause a fatal injury.
    If I'm attacked by someone with a knife or blunt force weapon and in defending myself the only wounds I inflected on the attacker are severing his quadricep tendon and tricep I don't think it takes F. Lee Bailey to make a rational, logical, scientifically accurate and persuasive argument that an attempt was made to use a lethal weapon in a non-lethal manner. If you can document that your training has been based in a non-lethal approach to using an edge weapon that adds to your legal defense.

    I'm very curious as to what your training, education, and experience basis is for your statements on legal, medical, and tactical issues.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    SouthNarc, Thanks again for the links. Very interesting stuff.

    It looks (to me anyway) like you and mercop have a similar outlook on self defense training.

    mercop's emphasis on pulling open hand, impact weapons, edged weapons, and firearms all together into a viable self defense system is what really grabbed my interest.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    My comments are based on having spend thousands of hours training people with all levels of experience in edged weapons self-defense. I have a pretty clear understanding of the natural mechanics most people employ when they start edged weapons training (standard grip, edge down).
    I'm beginning to doubt these statements.

  6. #66
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    2edgesword...

    I could do hours of research, show you cases, law review articles, articles and other writings from experts in law and edged weapons...and present the material to bolster my position in this debate.

    It wouldn't change your mind, so I'm just going to let this one go with this:

    You believe in the tactical and legal theories of bio-mechanical cutting. I don't.

    Maybe your training in edged weapons and the legal aspect of self defense has convinced you that it's the thing to do. Mine hasn't.

    You go with what works for you. I hope you never have to put your ideas to the test in the aftermath of a use of force incident.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unloved View Post
    I'm not an attorney either but I know that if you employ a deadly weapon for any reason you have exerted deadly force.

    If you use a closed folder as an impact weapon you have exerted deadly force.
    You're confusing intention with application.

    If you draw a knife the implication is that you intend to use it as a deadly force weapon. I fully understand that view. I also understand that it can be used in a non-lethal manner.

    If I'm attacked by someone with a knife or club and in defensive of that attack I inflicted wounds limited to the individuals forearm, bicep, tricep and quadricep (no wounds to the throat or torso) I believe a strong argument can be made to a jury of my peer that I attempted to use the knife in a non-lethal manner.

    All of my defensive counters have been to limit the attackers ability to weld his weapon. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make or understand this argument. I think it can be argued that your application of the weapon displays your intention.

    For those that claim this type of legal argument cannot be successfully made, please show me in case law where this type of scenerio has occurred and the individual defending themselves was unsuccessful in convincing a jury that there intention was a non-lethal use of the knife.
    Last edited by 2edgesword; June 6th, 2009 at 12:09 PM.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    I'm very curious as to what your training, education, and experience basis is for your statements on legal, medical, and tactical issues.
    On the training and education issue I'm a 2nd Degree Black Belt and have instructor certification with the American Kobe Jiu-Jitsu Federation (Grandmaster Bob Malvagno). With respect to edged weapons I have proficiency & instructor certification in Martial Blade Concepts (Founder Michael Janich). Beyond that 15 years of arnis training, two years in the military (U.S. Army '72 ~ '74) and a youth growing up on the streets of Harlem and the South Bronx.

    On the medical side there is research material available that demonstrates what is required as far as blood loss and trama to incapacitate a person. When this is considered against the instantaneous effects of biomechanical cutting I believe it demonstrates that biomechanical cutting is the most efficient means to end an attack.

    If the flexor tendons of the forearm are severed the hand loses its ability to grasp. If the tricep is severed or severely damaged the ability to extend the arm is compromised. This is basic human anatomy.

    The fact that this concept (non-lethal application of a lethal weapon) hasn't been tested in court may be more a factor of it's being a relatively new methodology. Having said that I think there is a sound basis in science and logic that supports the concept. Having trained and trained with members of law enforcement, the military...and even some doctors and lawyers, the methodology has been examined by individuals with various backgrounds and levels of experience.

  9. #69
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    I think it can be argued that your application of the weapon displays your intention.
    What if you shot someone in the arm? Does that mean you did not intend to kill them?

    Simply because you only inflict less-lethal wounds on your attacker does not mean that your intent was not to kill him. For example, if you slashed at someone's throat and they fended off the blade with their arm, they would suffer a cut on the arm, but the intent was to kill them.

    See?

  10. #70
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by United93 View Post
    What if you shot someone in the arm? Does that mean you did not intend to kill them?

    Simply because you only inflict less-lethal wounds on your attacker does not mean that your intent was not to kill him. For example, if you slashed at someone's throat and they fended off the blade with their arm, they would suffer a cut on the arm, but the intent was to kill them.

    See?
    Again, I think your comment ignors the vast differences in how each weapon (firearm versus knife) can be effectively applied. In addition, if you can substantiate your intention by a documentation of your training, that also adds to the support that your intention was a non-lethal application of the knife.

  11. #71
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    Regardless of training, if you cut/stab someone, even in the arm/leg, I would strongly suggest that you be in a situation where lethal force is warranted.

  12. #72
    New Member Array SouthNarc's Avatar
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    When this is considered against the instantaneous effects of biomechanical cutting I believe it demonstrates that biomechanical cutting is the most efficient means to end an attack.
    Other than theory there isn't any empirical evidence to support this. The human body can sustain alot of damage and keep going. I guarantee that a number of trauma surgeons can attest to limbs being "biomechanically" disabled yet still functional enough to press a fight. Short of severing a limb, I don't buy it. There's not a data base anywhere that indicates a single method of using a knife is more effective than any other. I don't care what it is and who teaches it. Me included. I assert that the vast majority knife "stoppages" are psychological.

    In addition, if you can substantiate your intention by a documentation of your training, that also adds to the support that your intention was a non-lethal application of the knife.
    If the day ever comes where a knife application is recognized by the courts as less/non-lethal force then that is the day that two decades of training and education on knives as lethal implements which warrant lethal force is flushed down the toilet. It will be exploited by the other side.

  13. #73
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    You're confusing intention with application.
    I'm not confusing anything with anything else.
    If you draw a knife the implication is that you intend to use it as a deadly force weapon. I fully understand that view. I also understand that it can be used in a non-lethal manner.

    If I'm attacked by someone with a knife or club and in defensive of that attack I inflicted wounds limited to the individuals forearm, bicep, tricep and quadricep (no wounds to the throat or torso) I believe a strong argument can be made to a jury of my peer that I attempted to use the knife in a non-lethal manner.

    All of my defensive counters have been to limit the attackers ability to weld his weapon. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make or understand this argument. I think it can be argued that your application of the weapon displays your intention.

    For those that claim this type of legal argument cannot be successfully made, please show me in case law where this type of scenerio has occurred and the individual defending themselves was unsuccessful in convincing a jury that there intention was a non-lethal use of the knife.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    Again, I think your comment ignors the vast differences in how each weapon (firearm versus knife) can be effectively applied. In addition, if you can substantiate your intention by a documentation of your training, that also adds to the support that your intention was a non-lethal application of the knife.
    Intent (or lack thereof) has no bearing on the issue. The fact is that any use of a knife against another person for any reason is, by definition, an application of deadly force. A knife is a deadly weapon. By that, I mean that a knife has potential to cause serious bodily injury or death. What you may or may not have intended when you employed a knife is simply irrelevant.

  14. #74
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Now, I'm not saying that anyone is wrong here as I'm far from an expert in any facet of this conversation.
    That said, I'm a bit dubious of anything that uses terms like "instantaneous" in terms of effects in combat of any type as there are many available examples of people not only surviving but continuing to function despite wounds that can adequately be described as "horrific". Add the fact that psychological impact has at least as much to do with the effectiveness of a given attack as physiological impact, and you're stepping into a small but very deep hole with posts that can be seen as containing absolute statements.

  15. #75
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    Saying that one can use a knife reasonably as a LTL weapon in a defensive encounter is as disingenuous as saying "oh I'll just shoot him in the feet" with a gun. It's lethal force, no matter how you cut it (pun intended?).

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