Leather sap fighting techniques

This is a discussion on Leather sap fighting techniques within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have consulted with a lawyer, various lecturers at my university (a security and pre police force and intelligence training institute) and been over both ...

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Thread: Leather sap fighting techniques

  1. #1
    Member Array disko's Avatar
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    Leather sap fighting techniques

    I have consulted with a lawyer, various lecturers at my university (a security and pre police force and intelligence training institute) and been over both my state laws, regulations and the federal customs act. Batons are regulated, the comtech stinger is prohibited both at an import and state carry level, and due to recent events in my city, police are zero tolerance on knives. Due to a section of the weapons legislation in my state, anything carried with the intent of it being used as a weapon is a dangerous article. If the police, for any reason, suspect you of carrying a weapon, they can search you. You MUST have a VERY GOOD reason for carrying a knife of any description or your in for a bit of jail time. The courts in my town do not mess around with knives.

    One of the few viable self defence weapons I've been able to locate that doesn't fall under the definition of a prohibited weapon is a lead filled soft sap. Because I can use it as a massage tool, I could carry it without fear of a charge.

    So, aside from the obvious 'aim for the head and hope to cause unconsciousness' or targetting the sciatic nerve, what fighting techniques could I employ?

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    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    A hit behind the ear or on the temple, will put them down. Kneecap, elbo, any other boney surface is another good target. If you have a flat short sap(around 6" length) you can use it like a knife, striking with the edge. Hiting with the edge is quite nasty, from what I hear.
    On the law part, is a "slungshot" iligal? If so, some states concider a sap/blackjack as a "slungshot".
    and due to recent events in my city, police are zero tolerance on knives. Due to a section of the weapons legislation in my state, anything carried with the intent of it being used as a weapon is a dangerous article. If the police, for any reason, suspect you of carrying a weapon, they can search you. You MUST have a VERY GOOD reason for carrying a knife of any description or your in for a bit of jail time.
    I would carry a knife anyhow. As long as it is a small folder that doesnt look like a weapon. If asked by a L.E.O. "why am I carrying a knife?" I would tell him its a tool for cuting cardboard, packaging wrap, ect. As you wrote "anything carried with the intent of it being used as a weapon is a dangerous article.", a tool for work/home is not something intended to being used as a weapon.
    Then again,
    I dont know if that reasoning would work "Down Under"?

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    Out of interest disko - and the fact that you are young is probably gonna make this seem absurd but - just wondering what your laws would say to a cane.

    For sake of argument, let us assume you have had ACL surgery and have a limp and so need a cane - would that wash?

    I wonder too how much loose change you could get away with - keeping in a sock in your pocket!
    Chris - P95
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    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    Itís funny to me how here in the U.S. a L.E.O. wouldnít bat an eye at a pocketknife, but would crap himself if he/she found a black jack on someome Where in Australia itís the oposite:shrug:.

    So it must be true! Everything is upside down there,...or is it here

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    Member Array disko's Avatar
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    gregarat, any double edged knife or a push knife (regardless of size) carried on the person in my state is automatically a prohibited weapon. Count out most tactical knives right there. Also, if push comes to shove and lethal force is necessary, I'm confident in my defensive tactics training that I could do so without weapons. Try telling a court in this country that you used a knife, that you just happened to be carrying, to stab and or slash a person in self defence, and you will most likely be laughed all the way to jail.

    Just from a practicality perspective, and because I have to retain a very visual presence at my job, a cane isn't an option. That's not to say we don't keep one behind the door at home (for my old man, his a big fella and the cane helps :D). It'd also open me up to more attacks (cane could be perceived as an indication of frailty) and in the real fighting situations I've seen/been involved in, retention of weapons such as bats and medium length steel bars gets difficult, especially against someone with intermediate martial arts training.

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    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    Darn, I was afraid that was the case.

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    Member Array disko's Avatar
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    A black jack, a rigid item that's clearly a weapon, would be a no no. But a sap, a round sap (not the flat type, again clearly a weapon in Australian LE eyes) could well be a massage tool. Plus, due to cultural differences (We suckle at the UK's colonial teat), the sap/blackjack was never an LE weapon and as such is not a familiar item here. We went with the straight wooden stick, UK bobby style, until upgrading to ASPs.

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    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    Oh yeah I missed that part in your original post

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    What About A Mag Light ?

    Are you allowed to carry a larger heavy turned Aluminum FlashLight?

    It would be nice if you could carry one of those that takes 6 large "D" Cell size batteries.
    That is an awesome and very effective defensive tool.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Sapping correlates nicely to snap-cuts, with a knife. Large muscle groups can be paralyzed, delicate areas (fingers, elbows, knees, wrists, skull) can be grossly traumatized. However. A sap is a sap. Unless you have developed and can demonstrate a "massage technique", I wouldn't put too much hope in that defense, if you had to use it. handy, though.......

    I can highly recommend Deryk Munroe's T-Bot:
    http://www.tadgear.com/edged%20tools...ryk_munroe.htm

    RickHinderer's Modular Kubobaton (the "pen" adaptor is well worth the $):
    http://www.rickhindererknives.com/

    The Jones Brothers make several "low-profile" goodies:
    The Defensive Stylus and Top Popper-
    http://www.shivworks.com/hardware.asp

    and the Magic Mushroom, etc., : http://usualsuspect.net/forums/showt...magic+mushroom

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    Member Array disko's Avatar
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    Thanks for the help guys.

    QK, just on the issue of maglites, I made a post in another section, but anyway, in Australia, maglites contain the a note in the instructions which reads 'not an impact tool'. One of my Law lecturers (also my security cert trainer) has had to defend many a patrol security officer confronted with an 'offenders on premises' situation and used the maglite as self defence.

    Basically, what is will boil down to is excessive force, because you are, in effect, striking the offender with a lead filled pipe. Defence lawyers will seize on it at the offender's trial, and the police will happily prosecute you for its use. I should further point out that in my state, a conviction for ANY assault (except absolute bottom of the ladder 'unlawful assault') will see you barred, without recourse, from the private security industry for 10 years. A finding of guilt without a conviction sees you out for 5.

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    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    Where do you live that you can't carry a knife. Does not sound right to me. As long a it has a clip on it, it is not concealed.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    You will have to get close like hand to hand for the sap to even work. Then you may just make them more upset.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

  15. #14
    Member Array disko's Avatar
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    Gday BlueLion, I'm from Australia

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