Unarmed Combat and Martial Arts

This is a discussion on Unarmed Combat and Martial Arts within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Wado-Ryu; Judo; bojitsu; kenpo, all in Japan; FSI/OJT [free style experiential and on-the-job training] self defense involving bar brawls, assaults and handling small, medium and ...

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Thread: Unarmed Combat and Martial Arts

  1. #31
    Member Array joelg's Avatar
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    Wado-Ryu; Judo; bojitsu; kenpo, all in Japan; FSI/OJT [free style experiential and on-the-job training] self defense involving bar brawls, assaults and handling small, medium and large nasty people armed with both traditional and non-traditional weapons (Japan, US, Europe, Mexico). I like and appreciate the MMA, which I consider to be close a close kin to the Bruce Lee thought process - and I have a hunch he would agree. BUT, I no longer "participate" in violence unless "invited," and I've turned down any invitations and will continue to do so unless not allowed to - I guess my great age and having lived this long [survived in spite of myself] has mellowed me, made me more comfortable with saying "no, thank you. I appreciate your kind offer...BUT..."
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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthPaw504 View Post
    I wouldn't put much weight in various belts. While there are many quality schools, there are so many more other schools that simply hand out belts.
    With any art, it's about how much you put into it.
    Amen. As Ed Parker (who founded the art I study) once said, "Belts show, but it is no guarantee that you know."
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    I agree with the assertion that studying ground fighting as well as a modern combat fighting system is needed nowadays. I can remember when I was in high school I boxed and wrestled as well as football, baseball. I was a member of the first graduating class at our brand new high school, so the coaches walked around and said, "hey, you look pretty strong. here, now your'e on the boxing team". Oh yeah, you are on the wrestling team too......

    So began my career in unarmed combat. I learned a lot there, also wrestling and brawling with other kids in the neighborhood. I would love to find a Krav Maga school near me, I have heard it is a brutal, yet effective fighting skill.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    I am not against Krav Maga at all...it has proven effective in combat against a determined and aggressive enemy. My only concern (and it is a concern, not a complaint) is that in my understanding of it, Krav requires a good bit of physical strength and stamina.

    That works really well for the people being taken into the Israeli army; they are young and strong. What about as they get older though? I want my studies to still be useful when I am 70 and 80 years old. I want my 5'2", 110 lb wife to be successful as well. So I am a bit leery of an art that requires a LOT (and by the posts here, I think Krav does) of stamina and strength to be successful.

    So for me, I will stick with the art(s) that stress skill and choice. Everyone always thinks that their art is best, else they wouldn't study it! I am no different, but I am open to being shown the value in others. Krav brings an understanding that in a fight it is a combination of lethal intent and ferocity that can win the day, and I value that part of it.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

  6. #35
    Member Array jarhead45's Avatar
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    20 years of Yoshinkan AIKIDO. I miss it like you wouldnt believe.
    Honor, Courage, Virtue. These are what makes a man.
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  7. #36
    njr
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    I have practiced krav maga for about a year total since the early 90s. The last time was for almost a year and I reached level 2.

    Before that, I practiced krav punching, kicking etc on a bag in a gym pretty much by myself. Good way to work out frustration, to a point.

    When I was a kid, I studied Judo briefly but my parents weren't willing to shell out the money for the lessons.

    Now I'm in my early 40s and my body isn't as resilient- I got injured twice in the krav class, and felt they were more gung ho than safety conscious, so I switched to Systema. (my injuries were a pulled back and shoulder which put me out for two months and a snapped tendon in my left pinky which has left me with a mallet finger. Other students though had such injuries as a snapped achilles tendon- youch!!)

    Most people haven't heard of systema- it is a style used by the Soviet now Russian Special Forces units. Despite it's ninja origins, it is a softer style than krav, which much in common, apparently, with external tai chi. I like it, it's really cool in that it doesn't emphasize kata, showy movements, stregnth, machismo but rather flexibility, tendon stregnth, ability to relax under extreme stress to be able to see openings, etc. We also train without pads and give and take a lot of punches, train with dulled knives, poles, etc.

    I train in martial arts b/c I didn't really have the chance when I was younger, for exercise and health and b/c it's practical, I might have an occasion where I might need to use it, being a truck driver who's involved with reform Teamster and Red/Green politics.

    What I don't like is that the classes have been out of the way and late for my schedule (I have to get up at 5am). So, I've been exercising on my own until my studio moves to a closer location (which should be any day). Also, I'd like more training in self defense encounter scenarios and less work on pure movement.

    I went to a four day seminar in Toronto and I really enjoyed it- a lot of the elements we worked on here in IL were pulled together for one on one training.

    I was talking to another student who has been practicing systema for five plus years and he said that it took him awhile to get comfortable with it as the method is so counter to the way most of us have been trained to fight- he said he "naturally" reverted to it to defend himself in a bar fight this last year, after five years of training.

    The other amusing aspect of Systema is that one of the founders, Mikhail Ryabko, is the un-Chuck Norris. He's not uber gung ho, and has a wistful look on his face oftentimes in photos, like "feh, all theez ninjas. I wish I could be having a beer right now".

    His partner is systema, Vladimir Vassiliev is really impressive and you can see him in videos off the systema site:

    Russian Martial Art. The System.
    By the forests, behind the guns/In the streets and in the houses/Between the tanks, by the roadside/At the hands of the men, of the women, of the children/In the cold, in the dark, in hunger....

    Bertolt Brecht, "To The German Soldiers In The East", stanza 9.

  8. #37
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    "Now I'm in my early 40s and my body isn't as resilient..."

    Forties, ha...wait until you hit your fifties ;).

    You have to tailor your training based on your age, stamina and physical abilities based on size, strenght and limitations that might exist as a result of injuries you have suffered over the years.

    As you get older you want to keep it real but you also need to exercise a little more wisdom in how/how hard you train. For short burst I can keep up with the 20 and 30 years olds I teach but I will NOT be doing full blown 5 minute MMA rounds. What I lack in size and sheer power I make up with speed, agility, economy of motion and maximizing what I do have with respect to using my body as a unit to generating maximum power.

    What may have been the ideal art for you in your twenties and thirties very well may change as you get into your fifties and sixties.

    "he said he "naturally" reverted to it to defend himself in a bar fight this last year, after five years of training."

    Once a foundation has been layed it is very difficult to tear it down to start over gain. I've had the opportunity to train individuals with various TMA backgrounds and one of the biggest challenges was trying to adjust their stance, footwork and guard. They'd do it but once the adrenaline started to flow they reverted back to what they learned originally.

    Anyway, to get back to the originally theme, ideally for the average person it is a benefit if your weapons skills are a compliment and extension of your empty hand skills rather then requiring a totally new set of skills with no connection to your empty hand MA skills.

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array Beans's Avatar
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    I studied in Okinawa for 6 months in the late 1968's while stationed then with the USMC ( they paid for the classes) some training classes as an LEO in the mid 70's and then nothing since.

    However I have practiced and have gotten fairly good at K-Shotgun, K-45, K-40 S&W, K-38 My yell had become Oh-Sh*T

    At 65 years old, Retired, over weight, out of shape Etc and I wanted to get into something, tired of sitting behind a computer or in front of a TV.

    My son has been taking MMA training in the Las Vegas area for a couple of years from some UFC trainers and has been Suggesting I do something.

    I found a Krav Maga/HaganaH training school in my area, one of two in AZ.

    I observed a couple of training sessions and have just started taking classes.

    They have a Natulis gym setup access that comes with the class fee @ $45.00 a month. 3 classes a week, Natulis access 5 days a week.

    My New Motto " let the soreness begin, but gently"

  10. #39
    Member Array Chroode's Avatar
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    Try Hakko-Ryu style Jiu Jitsu, or Akido. Both involve very little movment, and using the attackers strength against them. Very effective.

  11. #40
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beans View Post
    I studied in Okinawa for 6 months in the late 1968's while stationed then with the USMC ( they paid for the classes) some training classes as an LEO in the mid 70's and then nothing since.

    However I have practiced and have gotten fairly good at K-Shotgun, K-45, K-40 S&W, K-38 My yell had become Oh-Sh*T

    At 65 years old, Retired, over weight, out of shape Etc and I wanted to get into something, tired of sitting behind a computer or in front of a TV.

    My son has been taking MMA training in the Las Vegas area for a couple of years from some UFC trainers and has been Suggesting I do something.

    I found a Krav Maga/HaganaH training school in my area, one of two in AZ.

    I observed a couple of training sessions and have just started taking classes.

    They have a Natulis gym setup access that comes with the class fee @ $45.00 a month. 3 classes a week, Natulis access 5 days a week.

    My New Motto " let the soreness begin, but gently"
    Kudos Beans.

  12. #41
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    Black sneakers

    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I have black sneakers in Run Like Hell
    Me too. But trying to remedy that a bit.
    Elsewhere here in a different thread Rob pointed out that a lot of the dirt we might need to deal with have had a lot more fighting practice in prison.

    There is actually a martial art called "jailhouse;' the cultural anthropology behind the development of the different styles is interesting--how each fits a niche need.

    There is a snippet of Jailhouse in one of the knife fighting videos posted here a day or two ago. Its the scene where the attacker has the guy he's going to stab against a wall, reaches up with his left hand to attack the face and divert attention, and punches the shive in the belly 4-times real fast. Note how the style is designed for tight spaces as in a jail house.

    The proper counter to someone skilled in jail house is a black belt in Hollow Point.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents: I'm on the injured list at the moment, but I still consider my self a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu student, who has dabbled and likely will study Muay Thai more seriously in the future. I enjoy these two sports, and they both absolutely have value on the street, but at the end of the day, they are sports. Sports with rules, and that is my dilemma with them and MMA for self defense in general. Even when playing around with friends, I find after the fact that I missed a ton of opportunities to do real damage and end a fight, but during the game I don't even think about it because the rules are so deeply seeded in my mind.

    So deeply seeded that once my buddy was trying to disarm me (training gun) and when he closed I instinctively tossed the gun aside so I could use two hands to fight. Not smart but better to learn about it in my friends' living room than on the street. My point is that training in a sport can be very helpful if I ever face one on one, or even two on one at times...but there are plenty of scenarios where one NEEDS to be able to flip the rules switch to the off position, and training in a system that emphasizes that from the beginning has got to be a benefit in that area.

    I still love my MMA training, and want to get back to it...but I also wish I could afford to take Krav at a good school.
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  14. #43
    njr
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    cupcake, I recall seeing some books or videos on amazon, maybe it was by Marc MacYoung or someone of his ilk re making your martial art street ready. You can also check out _Complete Krav Maga_ by Levine and Whitman. In Systema, we have it set up so you can find training partners through the website. You might check out MA sites to see if there are other kravists in your area. Or, check out Systema- takes longer to learn, but there's a lot of really good, real world stuff there, I think it's actually superior to Krav in terms of closing with skilled opponents, multiple opponents, etc.
    By the forests, behind the guns/In the streets and in the houses/Between the tanks, by the roadside/At the hands of the men, of the women, of the children/In the cold, in the dark, in hunger....

    Bertolt Brecht, "To The German Soldiers In The East", stanza 9.

  15. #44
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    2nd degree black belt in Aikido. Have used it a lot for wrestling with multiple little kids, dodging falling boxes, avoiding inattentive drivers, weaving through traffic with a car or motorcycle. Excellent for situational awareness, command presence, working under pressure, keeping cool when faced with strong emotion or handling criticism from clients. Excellent for maintaining tactical flexibility, adapting to changing circumstances, defusing tense situations.

    One of the neatest things I've learned is that to most threats I don't have to back into the fight or flight syndrome. I can respond to the dynamics of most situations in a way that the potential threat is deflected or redirected away from me, giving me time and the presence of mind to be proactive rather than purely reactive, and to consciously choose the appropriate level of defense.

  16. #45
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    Wrestler from the second grade all the way into the Navy. After the Navy, started studying Judo to continue with grappling/throwing. I like Judo because every time you leave the dojo, you know what you can do because you practice live with throws, chokes and joint locks. Actual hand to hand every night we train (Randori). Judo is the sport form of Jujitsu. Been getting into the MMA style training as of late and seems very effective for the real world.

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