Stabbing v. Slashing - Page 3

Stabbing v. Slashing

This is a discussion on Stabbing v. Slashing within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Im not sure so much knife training has to go along with someone carrying a gun all the time. That said though I never go ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array earlthegoat2's Avatar
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    Im not sure so much knife training has to go along with someone carrying a gun all the time. That said though I never go anywhere without a knife that can at least punch halfway through an average male physique. The knife is a SHTF weapon (not unlike a handgun). If you need it you better get it out fast and start stabbing not slashing.


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I keep trying to interject some semblance of logic into a conversation here.

    My fault.

    I shouldn't have offered a point of view on the aftermath of a use of force situation that comes from formal legal education, admission to the bar and the practice of law - in addition to training in daito ryu aikijujutsu kodokai & pekiti tirsia kali.

    You are right. I am wrong.

    I apologize.

    I will probably learn something if I just ask some questions...

    Can you tell me the basis of your opinions which seems to be the basis of your opinions on the handling of a use of force incident in the court system?

    Police work? Which largely has no idea about the in and outs of civilian use of force. The practice of law? Depends on the area of law you practice. My friend has no clue about the use of force by civilians despite her being a practicing lawyer. Reading Ayoob articles? As many as I can find. Reading Law Journals & appellate cases? Not being a lawyer, I don't get updated like you do. If one comes to my attention I do read them if I can. Watching TV & You-tube? Nice jab there.

    See, the reason I'm asking is that your statements don't quite jive with what I've learned, and I need to reconcile my inadequacies and my lack of education with feedback from people who have a clue - something I figured I had, but I may not...

    Help me.
    "Animal" MacYoung, a fairly well-known authority on the use of knives for personal defense in court cases, has recently been posting information to this effect on another forum I peruse now and again. In fact, the "Whoops! He was already stopped!" example has been mentioned more than once during his discussions as has the rather severe repercussions those individuals subsequently faced.

    That said, I will admit that I did insert a few absolutes in there when I really shouldn't have. Entirely my fault.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=MitchellCT;1301274]
    Get as strong as you can, get as fast as you can, get as fit as you can.

    Learn how to hit, throw people around, what to do when the fight goes to the ground, how to get back up, how to access and retain a weapon during a fight.
    QUOTE]

    Doesn't that constitute "knowing how"??
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I keep trying to interject some semblance of logic into a conversation here.

    My fault.

    I shouldn't have offered a point of view on the aftermath of a use of force situation that comes from formal legal education, admission to the bar and the practice of law - in addition to training in daito ryu aikijujutsu kodokai & pekiti tirsia kali.

    You are right. I am wrong.

    I apologize.

    I will probably learn something if I just ask some questions...

    Can you tell me the basis of your opinions which seems to be the basis of your opinions on the handling of a use of force incident in the court system?

    Police work? The practice of law? Reading Ayoob articles? Reading Law Journals & appellate cases? Watching TV & You-tube?

    See, the reason I'm asking is that your statements don't quite jive with what I've learned, and I need to reconcile my inadequacies and my lack of education with feedback from people who have a clue - something I figured I had, but I may not...

    Help me.
    I'll help you....

    The problem is a great part of our legal system is totally screwed up. In many places the laws regarding the justified use of deadly physical force put the person defending their life and property into a corner demanding (IMHO) an unrealistic level of awareness and self-control during what is probably one of the most stressful situations they will ever face.

    My property represents a portion of my life. That car the thief is trying to steal out of my driveway may very well represent hundreds of hours of my life, hours I can never get back. But I'm just suppose to let him ride off with it versus defending my property, and the hours of my life invested in obtaining it, via the use of force, including deadly force.

    In the middle of the night a stranger is standing in my house and I'm expect to make an instant and accurate judgment regarding his intentions having just gone from a deep sleep to condition red, all in a matter of seconds.

    In the aftermath of a confrontation the police show up to gather evidence, question the parties and hand this information over to the DA, a lawyer practiced in twisting, torturing and shading ever word uttered in a way that best builds a case to prosecute the individual involved without any regard for the real world conditions that exist during these types of situations.

    Now I'm not talking about shooting someone over my "right" to a park space or stabbing someone because they insulted my wife. What I am talking about are circumstances in which even professionals in law enforcement, who have a higher level of training then most civilians, find it difficult to think and act in a perfectly rational, reasoned and controlled manner. What I'm talking about is the creation, by some in our society who have a bleeding heart for criminals, of unrealistic expectations in how innocent individuals are suppose to act/react in situations where questions regarding what is justified with respect to use of deadly for is not crystal clear in the moment.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    I'll help you....

    The problem is a great part of our legal system is totally screwed up. In many places the laws regarding the justified use of deadly physical force put the person defending their life and property into a corner demanding (IMHO) an unrealistic level of awareness and self-control during what is probably one of the most stressful situations they will ever face.

    My property represents a portion of my life. That car the thief is trying to steal out of my driveway may very well represent hundreds of hours of my life, hours I can never get back. But I'm just suppose to let him ride off with it versus defending my property, and the hours of my life invested in obtaining it, via the use of force, including deadly force.

    In the middle of the night a stranger is standing in my house and I'm expect to make an instant and accurate judgment regarding his intentions having just gone from a deep sleep to condition red, all in a matter of seconds.

    In the aftermath of a confrontation the police show up to gather evidence, question the parties and hand this information over to the DA, a lawyer practiced in twisting, torturing and shading ever word uttered in a way that best builds a case to prosecute the individual involved without any regard for the real world conditions that exist during these types of situations.

    Now I'm not talking about shooting someone over my "right" to a park space or stabbing someone because they insulted my wife. What I am talking about are circumstances in which even professionals in law enforcement, who have a higher level of training then most civilians, find it difficult to think and act in a perfectly rational, reasoned and controlled manner. What I'm talking about is the creation, by some in our society who have a bleeding heart for criminals, of unrealistic expectations in how innocent individuals are suppose to act/react in situations where questions regarding what is justified with respect to use of deadly for is not crystal clear in the moment.
    My only comment here is that despite being a practicing lawyer, MitchellCT has the idea somehow that an otherwise law-abiding citizen who is found to be standing over an assailant with stabs and slices all over their attacker's body, is covered in blood, huffing and puffing from exertion, clutching their bloode-soaked tactical folder in their hand, and with a wild look in their eyes from the massive adrenaline dump they're going through from fighting for their life is all but guaranteed to get a 100% objective fair shake from the get-go of the investigation without any preconceptions or wild assumptions by anybody.

    The correct answer is "No."

    As a defendant in a justified use of force case, you have basically told them that you just committed a felony but you had a good reason to do so. The entire weight of evidence and culpability falls on you to prove that it was justified, not on the state to prove that you did the deed because you've already confessed to a crime.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    My only comment here is that despite being a practicing lawyer, MitchellCT has the idea somehow that an otherwise law-abiding citizen who is found to be standing over an assailant with stabs and slices all over their attacker's body, is covered in blood, huffing and puffing from exertion, clutching their bloode-soaked tactical folder in their hand, and with a wild look in their eyes from the massive adrenaline dump they're going through from fighting for their life is all but guaranteed to get a 100% objective fair shake from the get-go of the investigation without any preconceptions or wild assumptions by anybody.

    The correct answer is "No."
    When did I ever say they would get a 100% objective fair shake from the police?

    You assumed that. You hire an attorney to make sure the state doesn't run over you like a dog in the road.

    Your attorney brings in the experts to show that given the circumstances...ectra, your actions were not criminal, and works to convince the state that the charges are unjusitifed and should be dismissed, or convinces a jury of that.

    As for my area of practice: One of them is criminal defense.

    RE: TV & You-Tube - Yes. It was a nice jab, and it landed nicely too. I thought of it myself and it only took me 20 minutes.

    2edgesword...Still teaching people how to maim others by using a knife in a non-lethal manner? How did that thread work out for you...OH, yeah...

    You can continue to overcomplicate the matter as you please. I hope it works out for you.

    I know which way I'm doing things.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    In many places the laws regarding the justified use of deadly physical force put the person defending their life and property into a corner demanding (IMHO) an unrealistic level of awareness and self-control during what is probably one of the most stressful situations they will ever face.
    If you want to continue that misconseption, don't let logic or education interupt you.

    I won't trouble you with it any further. I suggest you re-read our last thread (were you advocate maiming people in non-lethal situations) and my dispute with your point of view on lethal force usage.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Too often we go on and on about getting in shape if you want to protect yourself. The weakest among us are often the most likely to be attacked. That means the infirm and disabled. My Mother is in a wheelchair from a MC accident as is one of my private students. My Dad is only 60 but walks with a cane. Everyone, including them has a right to self defense that does not rely on physical fitness, but rather awareness and mindset. Few things warm my heart as much as the vision of a disabled student jamming a pen into the eye socket of and attacker who failed the victim assessment protocol.

    If your system relies on you being in good health and in top shape you may want to look at some other things too. We are only as good as our last injury or age. The most dangerous animal is the wounded animal. Now I am headed to the gym for cardio, chest & back. - George

    BTW, I for one am interested in hearing about any court cases and use of force.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    "2edgesword...Still teaching people how to maim others by using a knife in a non-lethal manner? How did that thread work out for you...OH, yeah"

    I feel for your clients....the term isn't "non-lethal" but "less lethal" meaning the wounds inflict are less likely to result in death.

    And yes, I am teaching my students to effectively defend themselves in circumstances where lethal force is justified even given all of the grey area that exist with respect to something that is defined using the words "reasonable believe".

    "If you want to continue that misconseption, don't let logic or education interupt you."

    Some of the most educated people on the planet haven't got an ounce of common sense. Some of the laws that exist in NY and I believe in CT defy logic when they place a requirement on a homeowner whose home has been broken into at night to access in mire moments whether the intruder in their home intends to do harm to the homeowner and members of his family. That defies logical and the facts associated with what occurs physically, mentally and emotional when this type of situation occurs.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    I feel for your clients....
    Envy because they have an attorney who will go to the mat for them, and understands the dynamic nature of a use of force situation, can explain the confusion to a judge so the stressors involved, the speed of the action, and has a network of experts (who have some very nice resumes) who will testify how your actions were reasonable and appropriate under the circumstances?

    Hate because they get all that at reasonable rates?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    And yes, I am teaching my students to effectively defend themselves in circumstances where lethal force is justified even given all of the grey area that exist with respect to something that is defined using the words "reasonable believe".
    Yeah.

    OK.

    Well. Just keep on keeping on. If I want to train with someone in lower NY State, I'm calling Mat Tempkin.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    Some of the most educated people on the planet haven't got an ounce of common sense. Some of the laws that exist in NY and I believe in CT defy logic when they place a requirement on a homeowner whose home has been broken into at night to access in mire moments whether the intruder in their home intends to do harm to the homeowner and members of his family. That defies logical and the facts associated with what occurs physically, mentally and emotional when this type of situation occurs.
    You have a skewed understanding of lethal force situations. Skewed to the point your OODA loop resembles congressional accounting practices.

    As I said, don't let logic or education interupt you.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    "Envy because they..."

    Not...pity, because he seems to refuse to want acknowledge the difference between non-lethal and less lethal.

    "Well. Just keep on keeping on. If I want to train with someone in lower NY State, I'm calling Mat Tempkin."

    Thank you. That means one less headache for me ;).

    "You have a skewed understanding of lethal force situations. Skewed to the point your OODA loop resembles congressional accounting practices."

    If it's skewed it's skewed by the facts regarding the dynamics of physical force (including deadly physical force) encounters and the common sense that says waiting for a intruder that is in my house uninvited at 2:00am to make his intentions crystal clear puts me and my family at risk and at at disadvantage with respect to defending ourselves.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    So in conclusion...I like stabbing but I'm not opposed to a good slash now and again.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    So in conclusion...I like stabbing but I'm not opposed to a good slash now and again.
    Agreed :).

    And a little good natured verbal slashing and stabbing is also fun.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    I'm gonna go with answer c: shoot 'em!
    If "C" is not an option I'm going to attempt to slash, as I have a better chance of disabling my attacker so that I may escape. I've seen a lot of stab wounds, and while they may be lethal in time, I want to get away from my attacker.

    In order to get away I need to quickly incapacitate, and in order to do that I need to take out the large muscle groups, tendons and nerves. Slashing motions in a deep and vigorous manner tend to best accomplish this, IMO.

    Biker

  15. #45
    New Member Array Airborne375's Avatar
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    I was trained..

    To slash defensibly at an attackers probing knife arm while waiting for the opening to stab at the stomach or try and get the blade through the rib cage. If I get really close the neck becomes a juicy target for either attack type.

    Naturally all this depends heavily on my opponent, his apparent skill level and preferred grip. If I feel outclassed I'd stay on the defensive until something breaks up the 'Dual' or a really obvious opening appears and I'm feeling particularly confident.

    I've been in 2 knife 'duels' since I left the military (the first was the catalyst for the second) and I have come through unscathed while inflicting a few telling weapon arm slashes to my opponents which caused them both to withdraw.

    As I hope every member of this forum realizes knife 'play' is dangerous business and the most important aspect is the time spent training and certainly not the blade one wields.

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