This is a discussion on Stabbing v. Slashing within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Thumper Question for the experts: Wouldn't slashes or jabs to the face be more likely to illicit retreat of a VCA because ...
I agree completely with George on this one. Pain compliance is the worst thing in the world to rely on because your typical assailant is almost guaranteed to have recently taken any number of legal and/or illegal substances that deaden pain either by design or as a side effect. Psychological is a non-starter for the same reasons above. If it deadens pain, it's definitely going to be altering their state of mind and often towards the more aggressive end of the scales.
Few people these days are not on any type of RX meds, and those you are in conflict with are most likely going to have alcohol and street drugs in their system. If they engage in this type of activity often they are likely to have more experience and inoculation to the chaos then those they attack.
Also consider this when you hear someone talking about doing joint locks with Kubaton or pressure points on with their fingers. There is no place for this BS in legitimate personal protection. You have got to train to move through people in anticipation of there being more than one.
When you think about defending yourself and you think weapons, you need to think open hands.
If you think about open hands, you need to think about weapons.
Or as my Jujitsu Sensei used to say: Defend, Counter, Control, Destroy. Lots of people are tempted, and trained, to skip one or more of these steps and it's a drastic mistake to do so as you have demonstrated in many a video and/or photo, George.
Just got back from another great Edged Weapons class in Quakertown PA. We had our usual group plus some motivated first timers. We finished up today's IET course with the Folder into Fight Drill. You put on headgear and a mouth piece and are armed with a Endura training folder, the rest goe like this-
Panic Push where you simulate trying to distance yourself from you attacker.
Then you grab a hold of two sticks held by another student and go back and forth for 30 seconds to get your heart rate up. When you have 10 seconds left I start tagging you while wearing boxing gloves. We had some advanced students in the class so they get the heat turned up a bit. This accomplishes a few things, the first is inoculating the student to what it feels like to have your bell rung. The second is it will allow them to articulate why they would use a knife to defend themselves even against some open handed attacks.
At the end of the 30 seconds they let go on the sticks and it is one on one. They try to gain the time and distance needed to deploy their folder and I do everything I can to stop them from doing it. Once they get the knife deployed they land some some cuts and we call time.
Something I noticed today as I turned up the intensity is that the good guy was crouching lower and lower from being struck, when he did get his knife out he was very low and just about all the cuts I suffered started above the knee and funneled into the crotch and ripped out. When they felt the hook was set they stood up and I attempted to pull away. It gives me the willies even in training.
We also worked on the use of Inverted Tactics with the stick and open hands. Again, it was a great class. Should have some pics and video up this week.- George
It works too. I took my first course with George 8 or 9 months ago. I left with a splitting headache. I didn't get hit anywhere near as hard back then as I did today. I feel just fine now. I'm able to maintain focus while being punched in the head, and effectively defend myself against a guy who's 2" taller, about 60 lbs. heavier, much more knowledgeable, and experienced than I am. I watched three other students (two of them newbies) who are much smaller than I am do the same.This accomplishes a few things, the first is inoculating the student to what it feels like to have your bell rung.
Wearing headgear, with an attacker wearing boxing gloves, I saw stars a couple of times today. That's my friend, trying to teach me something. What do you all think a bare knuckled punch to the side of your unprotected skull, from someone who's really trying to hurt you, would do to you?The second is it will allow them to articulate why they would use a knife to defend themselves even against some open handed attacks.
Just a quick question, George. What happens if your student doesn't carry folders? Seems more than a bit non-optimal to stick some poor slob with a folder they've barely held when their EDC is a fixed blade. If a student has a drone for their fixed blade, can they use that in the class during drills instead?
Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution
Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family
Inverted is our strategy and edge is a tactic. Students in the weeks class saw the continuity between open hand, stick, and knife using the inverted strategy.
The natural resting position of the hands are down at your sides, just in front of the pocket seams. That means when standing relaxed against another person and then bringing your hands up you are in a position to access targets from their groin to their armpits. You are also powerful here. As soon as your elbows get away from your body to the sides or the front you are off balance and loose power. We counter attack from underneath like a shark attacks a seal.
We also practiced all the drills this weekend with our eyes closed to replicate a common robbery scenario where you are OCed before the attacker makes physical contact to take your belongings. Using the Inverted Strategy and body mapping students are able to accomplish all the techniques they can with sight.
The reason we use folders exclusively during the class is that it-
1) Adds stress
2) Ensures that everyone can fall back on using a folder even if they EDC a fixed blade.
3) Allows me to work deployment drills on a line with people doing all the same thing, if they had fixed blades they would be coming from everywhere. People also find out real fast that there are only a few suitable primary deployment options for fixed blades and we don't have time to cover them all during this course.
Next year we are going to start doing our Advanced Edged Weapons course in which people will need more gear and be allowed to carry wherever and whatever they want. By that time they will have worked bugs out and have a better idea of what works in reality.- George
Neither one will do you any good unless you hit a vital organ.
I believe stabbing to be the best but only if you have a target and not just trying to poke a bunch of holes in someone. If you look at the way prisoners do it they usually go for the same spots being the neck,and other organs. You would have to know the basics of the human anatomy to be a good stabber.
Few stabbings if any in prison are defensive as they will be for us. After seeing several hundred people from varied backgrounds doing FTF what I have seen is people bent way over at the waist and moving backwards. Not the best recipe for effect stabbing. Using IET no matter where the knife goes it is funneled into the V of the crotch, inside armpits, between the side of head and neck, behind the knee and back of ankles.
Same as the difference between walking up behind someone and shooting them in the head and them attacking you first and trying to shoot them in head in defense.
And as far as I am concerned all these knife combat tactics and such are just theory. Ask your tactical knife instructor how many knife fights he/she has been in. Or the person that taught them the tactics etc. I am sure a majority answer would be none. Doesnt make me feel good to be taught something that could actually be worthless in a real situation. Case in point...I have been into the martial arts for over 20 years. However I'll be the first to admit about 90% of the stuff has absolutely no real world use. The first few UFC's showed that and caused everyone to go back to the drawing board as far as what works in an actual real fight.
Maybe its just me but I would like to know what your telling me will work has proven data to back it up. Not just well in theory it should work.I have never seen any knife instruction where the attacker goes nuts slashing the hell outta you like would probably happen in the real world. Its all usually slow controlled exercises.
And I am not downing anyone or being an a** I am just a realist.And I don't believe you can be trained to be a true warrior. I think either you have it in you or you don't. A lot of these defense schools are sending people out there with a false confidence.
What the first UFCs really showed us is that a determined grappler can take anyone down to the ground more than anything else. Everything else falls into experience in the positions where the fighters end up...just like every other type of fighting out there up to an including combat firearms use.
You also need to keep in m ind that the Gracies were far from being 100% honest in the first few UFCs. They specifically went for fighters without any groundfighting experience as evidenced by their methods being overcome in a fairly rapid fashion in later incarnations of the UFC. It took, what...three UFCs for Royce to get slapped around so bad that he couldn't fight in the finals?
I think it's best to keep in mind Bruce Lee's famous quote, "Before I studied the art, a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick. After studying the art, a punch was no longer just a punch and a kick was no longer just a kick. After mastering the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
You left some of the Bruce Lee quote out and I dont think you understood it. Its about expression. Meaning a punch is just a punch but its the way you express that punch that makes it differ from someones elses punch.
And as far as the UFC goes..a fight is a fight you shouldnt have to match skills. Its run what you brought. And Royce brought more to the table. And did you know that the Gracies are the ones who started the UFC? So of course they wanted to make everyone look bad. It was started to mimic real fighting. But sadly its now a just sport with rules and such.
But if you dont think BJJ rocked the martial arts world your nuts. Oh and I've never seen Royce overcome rapidly except maybe the Hughes fight but that was 10 years later. He was undefeeated up untill he quit because they implented a time limitHe quit because real fights dont have time limits. So who overcame him quickly??
And are you speaking from martial arts experience or just what you seen and heard on TV??
Wallid Ismal(sp?) punked Royce down with a Key choke pretty dang quick a bit back. Royce tried a comeback and got punked down then as well.
Yes, the Gracies brought something new to the table and they rocked the MA world. However, once their trick was spread around for a bit it was just another toolset. Look at more recent UFCs and you won't see a Gracie-stable fighter in the top tiers. In fact, the only place where the Gracies are still force is in grappling competitions. So yes, Gracie-style BJJ is a dominating force in the martial arts...as long as their opponents aren't hitting them.
UFC 8 showed a traditional-style roundhouse kick to the head (you know, the ones that don't work in real life) for a KO. If you ever hear a UFC fighter talking about striking training, it's always from a boxing coach. Many UFC fighters get multiple wins over a few years without any BBJ-type rolling around on the ground at all. St. Peirre uses a wrestling coach instead of a BJJ one and he dominates every fight he's in.
I see the same thing in MA all the time. First it was ninjas. Then it was Muay Thai. Then it was BJJ. Now it's "Reality Fighting", whatever the heck that is. It's looking to be FMA/IMA next if the rags are any indications.
Last edited by psychophipps; November 9th, 2009 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Added bits and spelling