Stabbing v. Slashing

This is a discussion on Stabbing v. Slashing within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; "The survivor must instantly go on the offensive. Punching as many holes into the attacker and causing as much blood loss as possible, as quickly ...

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Thread: Stabbing v. Slashing

  1. #91
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    "The survivor must instantly go on the offensive. Punching as many holes into the attacker and causing as much blood loss as possible, as quickly as possible, in whatever way they can."

    Longrider

    I agree that the survivor must immediately and aggressively go on the offensive but I think a more efficient objective is controlling and/or seriously damaging the limb welding the weapon versus punching holes in an attempt to increase blood loss to incapacitation. I do not want to be in a hole punching race with a knife welding attacker. If I'm not in a position to do something significant with my knife to immediately disrupt the attackers ability to weld his weapon then my focus will be controlling that limb and minimize the attackers ability to do damage to me, while I'm using other weapons (locks, breaks, knees, kicks, etc.) to inflict as much pain and damage as possible.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

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  3. #92
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    If you are lucky enough to get a hold of the weapon hand I think the elbows to the head from the side and front are the best compromise between power and staying close. Even with just a few inches of movement elbows are devastating. We have also found that once the BG is bent over a good pointed elbow in the middle of the back knocks them down good and the arms flare out to the side, often causing them to drop the weapon.- George

  4. #93
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    If you are lucky enough to get a hold of the weapon hand I think the elbows to the head from the side and front are the best compromise between power and staying close. Even with just a few inches of movement elbows are devastating. We have also found that once the BG is bent over a good pointed elbow in the middle of the back knocks them down good and the arms flare out to the side, often causing them to drop the weapon.- George
    Elbows and knees are the artillery of the human weapon.

    One of my favorites once I get them bent over is a knee to the head/chest followed by that driving downward elbow. If that doesn't work, I scoop the weapon arm and do the ol' head-to-armpit throw while maintaining a grip on the arm for some knee drop fun to a compression lock attempt.
    And If I miss the lock? Guess I'll just have to hit you some more!
    I really like this throw because it works if they're driving towards you in an attempt to bulldog which is common once you get their head down.

  5. #94
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    If you are lucky enough to get a hold of the weapon hand I think the elbows to the head from the side and front are the best compromise between power and staying close. Even with just a few inches of movement elbows are devastating. We have also found that once the BG is bent over a good pointed elbow in the middle of the back knocks them down good and the arms flare out to the side, often causing them to drop the weapon.- George
    Mercop

    My objective would be to control the arm between elbow and shoulder while applying those elbows, knees and kicks. Limiting the attackers mobility to one joint (shoulder) seriously limits his ability to weld the weapon. Grabbing a wrist allows the attacker to much latitude for manipulation of wrist, elbow and shoulder making it very difficult to control the limb.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  6. #95
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    Mercop

    My objective would be to control the arm between elbow and shoulder while applying those elbows, knees and kicks. Limiting the attackers mobility to one joint (shoulder) seriously limits his ability to weld the weapon. Grabbing a wrist allows the attacker to much latitude for manipulation of wrist, elbow and shoulder making it very difficult to control the limb.
    Good point. I was always trained to grab the forearm instead of the wrist in these scenarios for this reason. Adding some extension duration via a turning step also helps keep the weapon limb extended while you get to the bonking bits.

  7. #96
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    I agree, control between the forearm and wrist is a must.

  8. #97
    Member Array diverdown247's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unloved View Post
    Queensidecas' thread got me thinking and I didn't want to hijack or derail so...




    I remain unconvinced that stabbing is a viable technique for most of us. It seems (judging from photos I've seen) to take an awful lot of stab wounds to stop someone.

    I've noticed in training that people, even many with extensive training in stabbing oriented edged weapon methods, revert to slashing under pressure(Force On Force). I've seen a lot of repetitive angle 1, angle 2, angle 1, angle 2, etc. type stuff. It seems slashing will likely result in horrific looking, but largely superficial, and ineffectual wounds. Throw in a heavy coat, and that type of slashing could be completely
    futile.

    So, what do you all think? What should we do?


    Fight like you train!

    Speed of the strike is key. Either a pistol grip or underhand grip can be employed with devastating results. But one must train with the technique that he/she is going to employ and should be familiar with both techniques.

    A good example of speed being key is in the movie The Hunted with Tommy Lee Jones.

  9. #98
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diverdown247 View Post
    Speed of the strike is key.
    I have to disagree with you. You can't miss fast enough to matter. I'm not sure who said that, and I know it applied to shooting, but I think it's true with edged weapons as well. An ineffective slash, cut, or stab is ineffective. No matter how fast you strike.




    A good example of speed being key is in the movie The Hunted with Tommy Lee Jones.
    Movies aren't good examples of anything. They're movies.

  10. #99
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unloved View Post
    I have to disagree with you. You can't miss fast enough to matter. I'm not sure who said that, and I know it applied to shooting, but I think it's true with edged weapons as well. An ineffective slash, cut, or stab is ineffective. No matter how fast you strike.

    Movies aren't good examples of anything. They're movies.
    I can't quite agree with the second point. One thing that was fairly well demonstrated by this film was the fact that a single strike doesn't get the job done with a knife, unlike just about every other film or TV show out there were a stab in the back with a steak knife kills almost instantly. The characters really went to work on the people they shanked and I found this switch to be rather refreshing. Seeing the training sequences where the character who was specifically being trained to be a knife killer was running their combos from immediate threat, to mobility/counterattack capability with secondary killing potential, to straight-up killing strikes was a nice bit of, admittedly Hollywood, "realism" that isn't often seen in cinema.

    Heck, it was fairly close to how I was trained with a knife.

  11. #100
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    Agreed. Good info, LongRider. This is basically the same info I received from my ex-con acquaintances. The one thing I do have to add is that their experience was that attacks that breached the trachea and arteries of the neck resulted in much faster incapacitation than attacks to the vital areas of the torso.
    It would be nice if Daywalker would chime in as I am sure he has some revealing insights on knife attacks in prison. Be aware that what any reasonable man would assume is a fatal wound is not always fatal. Even if they are fatally wounded do not expect them to lay down and die right away. A man that knows he is dead can be highly motivated to take you to hell with him. I have seen men endure devastatingly unbelievable fatal injuries and not only survive but prevail. Without going into vulgar detail inappropriate for a public forum it is difficult to articulate how strong a human beings will to survive can be. Nor would any examples posted on the internet sound very credible. If portrayed in a movie the vast majority of people would not believe it. Point being do not stop your defense, even if they are decapitated until they are on the ground and not getting up. Do not hesitate because you think they should be dead or that you've dealt a fatal blow. Hesitation can be fatal to you

    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    I agree that the survivor must immediately and aggressively go on the offensive but I think a more efficient objective is controlling and/or seriously damaging the limb welding the weapon versus punching holes in an attempt to increase blood loss to incapacitation. I do not want to be in a hole punching race with a knife welding attacker.
    I really hope that works for you I can only go by my own experience and observation. Which is that attempts to deliver precise strikes or execute proper kata is fatal. It is just not the way it happens in my experience. Even fatal wounds may not stop your attacker. So expecting that a precision strike to the heart for instance will stop an attack can be a deadly tactical error. I have observed where an attacker hesitated because they knew they had struck several fatal blows to the heart and thought their opponent should be down. In that moment they lost the battle. There is no time to hesitate aim or think.

    Massive blood lost from multiple wounds does stop an attack. Every Time, without fail. But even than not immediately. It will take a few seconds. It will seem like a life time and it is enough time for them to take you with them.

    My suggestion is to practice and train to the best of your ability until it is an instinctive intuitive natural response. Know where the vital / vulnerable areas are. Pick a number a hundred or more than practice making that number of strikes in those areas as fast as you can.

    Than attack with absolute unthinking automatic unrestrained vicious ferocity punching as many holes in your attacker as possible. Do everything in your power to turn them into swiss cheese as quickly as possible. You may end up a bit uglier with some nasty scares and missing fingers but you will survive. At least that is my experience. I am old and ugly but at least I've lived long enough to be old. As that Irish saying says Tis a privilege denied many
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  12. #101
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    It is true that few people know more about the realities of an edged weapon attack that corrections officers and inmates. Basically what I teach CO's is this. They are gonna have a weapon and you are not. You are likely to feel the attack before seeing it. Trap, isolate the offending arm and do your best to smash their head into the floor, wall, and bars. Stop when they are not moving anymore. Deadly force is deadly force.- George

  13. #102
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    Between LongRider's and Mercop's posts, I really have nothing to add to this thread. I grew up in the ghetto, and have worked in corrections. I had a knife held to my throat at the age of 6 and countered shiv/shank attacks on a monthly basis. Everything they are saying is true. My only advice is to echo their comments-
    Trap the opponents striking arm. You WILL get cut. You will PROBABLY be stabbed (unless you're really lucky! Which I've been). Make sure it's not fatal. If you see the attack coming, you have some determination of how you will counter. Then go absolutely ape*snot* on them. Strikes to the neck and throat are far more effective than those to the torso. I've seen guys stabbed multiple times that did not die, but kept fighting. (off-topic, I've seen guys survive with upwards of 7 shots from a .30cal)

    Avoid a blade confrontation at all costs, except your life or that of those you love. If it's unavoidable it will be almost certainly be the most brutal experience of your life.

    That's all I can offer. Again, hat's off to Longrider and mercop for their honest and insightful comments.

    Semper Fi
    NRA Certified Instructor (6 years)
    Former LEO/DOD Contractor
    Active Duty Marine (Martial Arts Instructor)
    Glock 17, Kel-Tec P-11, S&W Model 60, various rifles

  14. #103
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    It is true that few people know more about the realities of an edged weapon attack that corrections officers and inmates. Basically what I teach CO's is this. They are gonna have a weapon and you are not. You are likely to feel the attack before seeing it. Trap, isolate the offending arm and do your best to smash their head into the floor, wall, and bars. Stop when they are not moving anymore. Deadly force is deadly force.- George
    Now now you know that smashing in poor miss understood Johnny's head is inappropriate and guards can get sued for brutality and probably racism if they actually did that.

    Sadly, while sarcastic not at all a joke, in todays PC legal system. Still I hope they follow your advice. Better unemployed than dead

    HardCorps79 thanks, and Thank You for Your Service.
    Last edited by LongRider; December 31st, 2009 at 06:00 PM.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  15. #104
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    I first did this course in for the Maryland Department of Corrections Special Operations Groups in the old Baltimore State Penitentiary. It was met with a warm reception. They carry no "weapons' and also seemed fond of my idea about hitting an offending inmate about the head and shoulders if needed.

    Whether you are duty bound or not a typical fight turns into a deadly force incident fast. I don't pull any punches when I teach deadly force. No matter how justified, no matter how evil the person is it is will change you forever. A change that has nothing to do with the criminal and civil litigation that will follow. A change that those who have been forced to use it understand intimately but find hard to describe. That is the reason why I emphasize open hand combatives so much, violent, brutal open hand combatives that you can better measure the use of. The same cannot be said of bullets and blades. Don't fight anyone you can walk away from, don't maim anyone you can injure, don't kill anyone you can maim. - George

  16. #105
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Yep
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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