Stabbing v. Slashing

This is a discussion on Stabbing v. Slashing within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; IMHO you need to concentrate on defending against the blade instead of introducing your own.- George...

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Thread: Stabbing v. Slashing

  1. #106
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    IMHO you need to concentrate on defending against the blade instead of introducing your own.- George

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  3. #107
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    You guys are scarin' the crap outta me, I want my momma!!!


    But seriously,


    It is true that few people know more about the realities of an edged weapon attack that corrections officers and inmates. Basically what I teach CO's is this. They are gonna have a weapon and you are not. You are likely to feel the attack before seeing it. Trap, isolate the offending arm and do your best to smash their head into the floor, wall, and bars. Stop when they are not moving anymore. Deadly force is deadly force.- George
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    I've had a knife pulled on me once, but he was a complete idiot and I simply kicked it out of his hand before he could do anything with it. Think of the movie cliche of, "Ha ha! Who's a tough guy now, *insert random dis here*?" quickly followed by getting schooled by his opponent. It was so sad that my adrenaline didn't even fire up during the incident.

    I have no issue at all believing your anecdote about your knife wounds. That sort of stuff happens with gunshots, even from the much vaunted .45 ACP, all of the time.

    When forced to retreat, people will resort to slashing irregardless of their training for the instinctive reactions mentioned above. Stabbing while retreating is an exercise in futility. However, that is largely a training issue, IMO, rather than a lack of stabbing being an effective tool.
    Typical knife force on force scenarios, if mercop's excellent training example videos are any indicator, start with the defender backpedalling from an armed or unarmed assailant while attempting to ready their weapon and it goes from there. Good to go. However, I don't typically see the defender passing a slash or thrust and JUMPING ON THAT MOTHER-BLANKER, TAKING HIM DOWN AS YOU STAB HIS NECK, DOING A DOUBLE KNEE DROP ONTO HIS HEAD AND FLOATERS WHILE PINNING HIS ARM TO HIS SIDE AS YOU MACHINEGUN YOUR KNIFE INTO HIS ARMPIT/HUMERAL ARTERY AREA AND NECK WHILE DELIBERATELY DOING EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO KEEP HIM FROM FIGHTING BACK.
    Psycophipps


    I kind of think this sounds legit

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  4. #108
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dal1Celt View Post
    In Eskrima I'm taught to slash/fillet my opponent. The more serious the slash the less likely the attacker is to proceed.

    IMHO
    I'm in agreement with Dal1Celt here, after many years in the MA and SD world. Slashing style/systems seem to (I'll use my words here) scare the living crap out of people more then someone just trying to jab you with one, there is something about someone using slashing motions that just intimidates the living crap of people even those of us trained in it because if your not afraid of an individual with a knife (weapon), something is wrong with you in the 1st place.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  5. #109
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    During Inverted Edged classes we do the folder into the fight drill twice. The first time the student can use the knife anyway they want. I am usually the aggressor. About 90% of the cuts I suffer are the the outside of the arms and across the stomach. When attacking these areas especially through clothes the cuts are not likely to have much physical effect. Every once in a while I get stabbed and know it because even with a trainer it hurts...bad. The reason that stabs don't occur often is because I am on the good guy like white on rice, forcing him back and hitting him.

    The second time around they have been trained in IET and that coupled with the ineffectiveness of what they saw in the first go round usually sees them using IET.

    I would say that during the second time about 80% of the first cuts after opening their knife a channeled into my groin before ripping out. I doubt I will ever get used to this feeling. The second and subsequent cuts are under my arms (brachial artery) or my neck.

    If you are using a knife to defend yourself things are bad, very bad. I think you will be cutting someone off of you more than "knife fighting".

  6. #110
    G3
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    stabbing vs slashing debate

    A little late to the discussion but...
    History has proven that a stab is more effective and debilitating than a slash (even well placed ones):

    They were likewise taught not to cut but to thrust with their swords. For the Romans not only made jest of those who fought with the edge of that weapon, but always found them an easy conquest. A stroke with the edges, though made with ever so much force, seldom kills, as the vital parts of the body are defended by the bones and armor. On the contrary, a stab, though it penetrates but two inches, is generally fatal.
    ---Vegetius (Roman tactician & historian)
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  7. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Don't fight anyone you can walk away from, don't maim anyone you can injure, don't kill anyone you can maim. - George
    I like this, sir. Mind if I steal it?

  8. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by G3 View Post
    A little late to the discussion but...
    History has proven that a stab is more effective and debilitating than a slash (even well placed ones):

    They were likewise taught not to cut but to thrust with their swords. For the Romans not only made jest of those who fought with the edge of that weapon, but always found them an easy conquest. A stroke with the edges, though made with ever so much force, seldom kills, as the vital parts of the body are defended by the bones and armor. On the contrary, a stab, though it penetrates but two inches, is generally fatal.
    ---Vegetius (Roman tactician & historian)
    This is the correct answer, stabs over slashes. Think about how the human body is engineered--you've got a rib cage to stop slashes with a sacrificial skin covering it because lions, tigers, and bears (oh my) slash, not poke.

    It's why noone worries about body armor being slash-rated, as that's easy, but they care a heck of alot about stab rating. That doesn't mean that there's no room for slashes, but IMHO they pale in deadly effect to stabs.

    There's really only one place to slash a human to get them to bleed out quickly, that being the neck, but you can poke them a multitude of places to accomplish the same thing.
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  9. #113
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    If you need to be lethal stab, then push your opponent forward from the blade with the opposite hand to get the knife out,
    and twist it as you are pushing. That gets you a quick knife recovery with maximum wound size and internal damage.

    A slash is a warning unless its to a few really vital arteries near the surface. A stab is a fight finisher.

    And mostly, don't go there at all if there is any choice. I really think you have a better chance with a jury
    after using a gun than you do after using a knife--especially if you are licensed. There's some psychological
    factor about the down and dirty bloody mess that taints all the participants in the fight, including the defender.

    Also, the H2H nature of a knife fight makes it look (not necessarily reality) as if the winner
    was not truly in fear of his life. Its not rational, but I think that's sort of how the minds of folks not
    into this stuff work. "That evil man was walking around with a knife looking for trouble." It is a bit harder
    to make that false leap if someone has a CHL which implies that "the state" was OK with his being armed.

    ADDED a few minutes later__ There is some good stuff in "this here book,"


    Janich, Michael (2010-04-09). Knife Fighting: A Practical Course (Kindle Location 59). Paladin Press. Kindle Edition. Long
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    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  10. #114
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlindBlade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    How many times have you taken care of business with a stab up under the fifth rib with a 7" blade?
    the answer is : several times.
    Several times? Really based upon your posts I seriously doubt that is true

    Quote Originally Posted by BlindBlade View Post
    how about actualy getting into
    a real fight or two, before you try
    tellig someone else ,what is effective,
    or not.
    This to a man who is paid to train LEO, correctional officers and private individuals self defense with knives, hands and firearms based on his real life experiences. BRILLIANT. Definitely goes to prove you know what you are talking about.
    NOT

    Quote Originally Posted by BlindBlade View Post
    i'm not here to argue
    This is absolutely untrue, a lie. Your posts have been nothing but argumentative. Rather than answer simple questions asked on you, engage in civil debate and discussion you resort snide and personally insulting posts.
    On one thing you are absolutely correct. You should most definitely use the precision strike tactics you imagine to be so effective. What Mercop myself and others have suggested is not intended for you. Those suggestion were made for those who we would like to see survive and prevail not those like yourself who know it all

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Back to waiting
    There is an old ndn saying. "Has ear but can not hear" Some folks have will stand by their assumptions and theories no matter what. I think they take learning something that contradicts their assumptions and preconceptions as a personal affront.
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    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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  11. #115
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Good post LongRider!

    Unfortunately, our silent killer hasn't been active for over two years. I'd love to hear his reply though!
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  12. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Good post LongRider!

    Unfortunately, our silent killer hasn't been active for over two years. I'd love to hear his reply though!
    I miss Mercop's presence here and I think he generally had very sound advice. I don't doubt him, and as you all
    know I'm a fairly skeptical guy.

    Now, since we've resurrected a thread from the dead, I noted this comment made by Oneshot a few posts up--#107

    "When forced to retreat, people will resort to slashing irregardless of their training for the instinctive reactions mentioned above. Stabbing while retreating is an exercise in futility."

    I don't know about that. When I practice MA style boxing, one of the drills is to land punches while retreating but being pressed. I don't see any reason why the same drill wouldn't work for sticking a knife in.

    I think a lot of how one views these things depends on the range of MA H2H experiences you've had. I do very very
    mixed stuff; some from this style, some from that style. I have no belt in anything. I think sometimes the
    guys who want to make an art of SD lose track of the infinite number of ways bad stuff can happen and the
    advantages of NOT relying on a canned response.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  13. #117
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Oh, sorry if I wasn't clear there. I was referring to BlindBlade's posts.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  14. #118
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guardian View Post
    I'm in agreement with Dal1Celt here, after many years in the MA and SD world. Slashing style/systems seem to (I'll use my words here) scare the living crap out of people more then someone just trying to jab you with one, there is something about someone using slashing motions that just intimidates the living crap of people even those of us trained in it because if your not afraid of an individual with a knife (weapon), something is wrong with you in the 1st place.
    Please take note. There is something seriously wrong with violent predators that that chooses to use a knife to maim, mutilate and murder you. A gun is quicker and more effective but they choose to use a knife. Your conclusions are valid and correct as long as we are talking about rational sane individuals. But rational sane people do not attack innocent people with a knife. Many of these whack jobs started experiencing violence while in the womb. Violence is an every day natural occurrence to them. They think scars are cool, something to brag about and impress women with. I have seen them cut on each others while playing or practicing. Like shaking hands while holding a gun, slashing motions at their face tells them you are inexperienced and afraid. Bolsters their confidence and assures them that all you are going to do is give them some cools scars to brag about when they charge in to gut you like a pig. Have no doubt they consider you a lower life form than pigs.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Good post LongRider!

    Unfortunately, our silent killer hasn't been active for over two years. I'd love to hear his reply though!
    OMG I am a tard. Maybe I should read the date on old threads before posts. I too appreciated most of Mercop's insights and trust his veracity which is why the one post irked me...... Any idea what happened? Appears Mercop's websites are down too
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  15. #119
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    He's still active on m4carbine, but not so much the other forums for some reason, and not as often. Not exactly sure why, but if I refine my search on m4carbine, maybe I can find some info...
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  16. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    He's still active on m4carbine, but not so much the other forums for some reason, and not as often. Not exactly sure why, but if I refine my search on m4carbine, maybe I can find some info...
    Please do that.

    I liked his thought provoking and informative posts so much I seriously considered taking his non-ballistic
    handgun course; and hiring him to train my son and daughter in-law. But, for whatever reason, he never answered my
    e-mail.

    Hope he is well. I'd like to see him back here.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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