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Stabbing v. Slashing

38K views 122 replies 33 participants last post by  Madcap_Magician 
#1 ·
Queensidecas' thread got me thinking and I didn't want to hijack or derail so...


Just to state my assumptions up front. I am well informed about the different schools of tactical knife combat and associated martial arts. The only school of thought that has me convinced are the Prison and QCB based approaches that employ knives specialized in stabbing with a hit grip.
I remain unconvinced that stabbing is a viable technique for most of us. It seems (judging from photos I've seen) to take an awful lot of stab wounds to stop someone.

I've noticed in training that people, even many with extensive training in stabbing oriented edged weapon methods, revert to slashing under pressure(Force On Force). I've seen a lot of repetitive angle 1, angle 2, angle 1, angle 2, etc. type stuff. It seems slashing will likely result in horrific looking, but largely superficial, and ineffectual wounds. Throw in a heavy coat, and that type of slashing could be completely
futile.

So, what do you all think? What should we do?
 
#44 ·
If "C" is not an option I'm going to attempt to slash, as I have a better chance of disabling my attacker so that I may escape. I've seen a lot of stab wounds, and while they may be lethal in time, I want to get away from my attacker.

In order to get away I need to quickly incapacitate, and in order to do that I need to take out the large muscle groups, tendons and nerves. Slashing motions in a deep and vigorous manner tend to best accomplish this, IMO.

Biker
 
#3 ·
The situation with respect to stabbings in prisons may have more to do with the types of weapons available versus any significant benefit to stabbing versus slashing. Creating a stabbing impliment is probably a lot easier given what prisoners have access to (materials and the ability to work the materials) then creating a sharpened blade for slashing.

Comprehensive training will include slashing, stabbing and combinations of both.
 
#108 ·
I'm in agreement with Dal1Celt here, after many years in the MA and SD world. Slashing style/systems seem to (I'll use my words here) scare the living crap out of people more then someone just trying to jab you with one, there is something about someone using slashing motions that just intimidates the living crap of people even those of us trained in it because if your not afraid of an individual with a knife (weapon), something is wrong with you in the 1st place.:wink:
 
#5 ·
This is not an either/or. First of all, it is dumb to bring a knife to a gun fight. The knife is for that part of the fight where you cannot get to your firearm but can get to your knife.

Second, it is a combination of stabbing and slashing that gets the job done. You MUST realize that in the heat of combat a BG will be able to fight a long time with significant injuries. Whether you shoot him or slash him or stab him, he will not give up instantly. So you must overwhelm him with intensity, speed, and technique.

Translation: hit vital areas with slashes and stab to keep him "out of time" so to speak.
 
#6 ·
My primary technique is to slash. Stabbing with a knife is like a gunshot. You can get either many times in a lot of places before you go down. Placement is key. With slashing, your wound area is bigger and more likely to stop (not necessarily kill) the attacker. I can get shot or stabbed in the arm and it not stop me, but if a slash severs the muscle and tendons, that arm is now non-functional. Granted a stab or bullet in the right place will do the same, but you have to be more precise. Precise just isn't there in a fight. Plus a bullet will usually go further into a body than a knife will. A stab and then slash would be a nasty wound.

Also, try stabbing an artery. Slashing is is so much easier and the chances for success are so much better. Just make sure that your blade is sharp and you put effort into your cuts as not to make a bunch of superficial cuts.

That said, there is a time and place for stabbing, just like there is for head shots, but generally center mass is better as you can get the same effect for less effort.
 
#7 ·
I think a slashing type is best.
When using a sharp blade even
slashing will slice right through heavy
jackets, clothing and on down into flesh.
While it is a popular saying "dont bring a knife
to a gunfight" a knife when used in very close quarters
is better than a gun and probably more deadly.
A big advantage of stabbing is of course deeper wounds
also stabbing is more discrete which is one reason the method
is used more in prisons. Good to practice different methods and
styles
 
#8 ·
Prison officials worry about deep poking shivs more than slashing shivs due to the vastly increased chances of infection, especially for lower abdominal hits.

I prefer stabbing techniques for the speed and smaller arc of movement for potential detection and subsequent deflection by your opponent. Add a bit of the FMA thrust-cut technique and you can get a pretty good hybrid of the two with each strike.
 
#9 ·
For those who continue with the gun show slogan comments like "Just shoot them" and "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"- have you done any force on force against edged weapons?

We have narrowed it down to the two most likely angles you will be attacked at, Angle 1 traveling high right to low left from a right handed attacker, and Angle 7 which is a stab. Angle 1 looks remarkably like a roundhouse punch, and Angle 7 a jab or rabbit punch. Research shows that most victims of edged weapon attacks did not see the weapon. In addition it takes on average 3/4 of a second to respond to a visual stimuli. That said I think we can all agree that responding to a roundhouse punch with a firearm in most circumstances is going to be unjustified. So someone is swinging at you and you are able to see a weapon, what are the chances of you being able to deploy your pistol, get the muzzle between you and the attacker and pull the trigger before they #1, slash your face/neck with a box cutter, or #2, plunge a screwdriver between your ribs?

This past weekend we did an Edged Weapon Survival / Combative Pistol Course in Pittsburgh. Students found out fast that going to the traditional two handed shooting stance resulted in them taking at least one cut/stab to a vital area. They were also attacked with impact weapons representing tire irons while they were wearing headgear. This resulted in them taking what would be a crippling blow to the side or top of the head.

One student realized they need to deal with the assault first, and needed to move. They began using their reaction side hand to block/wrap/deflect their attacker. This coupled with moving at a hard 45 degree angle to the right of their attacker usually resulted in them landing rounds without being touched by the weapon.

Back to cuts. vs slashes. We are discussing the offensive use of edged weapons, when you are backed into a corner. View yourself as a cat in that situation. Your knife should be used as a claw in a frenzy to make the predator realize you are not worth his life. You fight to stop the attacker, not to win or kill him. If he dies in the fight, that is the breaks. I view cut/rips/slashes as the claws. Stabs are your teeth. Teeth are used defensively, but usually only after the claws open up the attackers body to expose vital areas.

At the beginning of an attack, where you are defending with an edged weapon, you are most likely to be moving backward. When humans are forced backwards, their arms go out to the side trying to keep their balance. If you have a knife in your hand and are defending at this point, you will be slashing. What we have evidenced during force on force is that the slashes usually cut the outside of the shoulder and across the torso. This does little to any of the body systems.

The human arm is only capable of three things: pushing, pulling, and swinging. We are hardwired to use swinging to defend ourselves since it covers the most area in front of us to block/wrap/evade. With a knife, it also allows us to cover more area on our attacker increasing the chances of a cut. Long before we had edged weapons, we were stuck with our natural impact weapons at the end of our arms...our fists. We learned early on that the centrifugal force generated by swinging worked well for beating people off of us or at least changing their mind about the attack. Before the invention of purpose driven weapons, pushing someone (stabbing) off of us had little benefit, especially when there was a disparity in size. In life and death situations at contact distance when being driven back, our primitive mind had a tendency to win out over our trained mind. We can't change it so we train into it.

The way we do this at MCS is with Inverted Edge Tactics. By using the inverted grip, we placed the blade in a position to take natural advantage of the natural path of our hands (from the waist line up to our chest). On its way up, you feel the knife "catch" in vital areas and pull as your attacker responds to the pain. This causes a devastating scissor effect.

Focusing on the tool instead of the fight is a deadly error. - George
 
#10 ·
The stabbing vs slashing debate will go on forever. What I think is important is for each person to adopt a style, choose an appropriate knife for that style, train in that style, and hope you NEVER are force to defend yourself with a knife. ALL of that assumes that you dont have your handgun because you are in a place/situation where you are not allowed to have it or some other circumstance.

Having said all of that the reason I chose stabbing over slashing as my personal defense style is I am 100% convinced through evident reason, logic and my own personal experiences that philosophies and concepts expoused by Marc Macyoung on his website: No Nonsense Self Defense - Reliable information for dangerous situations about self defense using a knife are totally correct. Read up on everything he has to say on the topic and make up your own mind. I am also convinced that the fastest way to end a knife fight is from deep stabs and ending a fight quickly is the only thing that is important if your only goal is self defense. Figure 8 slashing techniques are nonsense. You should be running away instead of standing off if you have the time to stand there swinging your knife in a figure 8 and other such garbage. I think the best real world scenario of true knife attacks and self defense is basically what happens in prison. These hardened criminals are more lethal with a knife than anyone and I think their view on how to attack and defend with a knife is more realistic than anyone since they are the only people that actually kill and get killed with knives in modern society. They are also limited to using shanks which are basically the size of most folders and small fixed blades that the law limits people to carrying.

My own analysis: I think the concept of a knife fight is utter nonsense, especially a knife fight vs someone else with a knife. This isnt the movies, it is real life and you play for keeps. No second chances. I am not in the least bit interested in fighting anyone. Fighting is a completely different mindset that self defense and as I said above I couldnt agree more with what Marc MacYoung has to say about it. For me I want a small knife made for lethal stabs that has a point that can punch through anything so that if I am truly cornered and cannot run, that I can deliver the necessary critical blows that WILL allow me to get away.

If the bad guy has a gun and I dont, the only chance is to give them what they want and PRAY that if that doesnt satisfy them that you can either disarm them or run. If I have my gun, I will defend myself while retreating. Having a plan for a defensive knife scenario is just for the off chance that situation #1 occurs and I am in a place that would not allow me to conceal carry my handgun
 
#11 ·
Some other thoughts on stabbing vs slashing. In terms of pure physics stabbing is more economical in terms of energy spent and power delivered as compared to slashing. Another plus is it is much harder to disarm someone who is stabbing and it takes much less techique and traing to stab.

This discussion reminds me of a popular forum topic on sword forums. The question posed was if we were all knocked back to the stone ages and you were forced to combat with ancient weaponry what would you use. Japaneese style swords, broadswords, spears, knives, maces..blah blah. At anyrate almost everyone agreed that assuming equal level of training, the short spear is the most leathal weapon ever devised by man. The economy of motion for a fast spear thrust is unequaled and the lack of training to be efficient with a short spear is staggering. The range and economy of motion put the short spear at the top of the list.
 
#12 ·
true it does take less training for stabbing motions.
Most people that use a knife with little or no training
naturally tend to use stabbing motions. The most basic
is the over the head (Ice pick grip) type stabbing motion
swinging down on someone. That type of motion seems like it would be
easier to be disarmed though. What I like and also fear with knives
is they are so easily hidden even when open and in someones hand
if held right.
 
#16 ·
...We are talking about defensively.
Yep. ^^

I've remained mum on this thread since noting when the OP first posted and there were no other responses, yet.
Simply because the answer is there is no all and any situations answer (!). Quite simply it very much depends.


There is now though a lot of theory posted here as well as links to other sites with more theory.

But bottom line...
* Who here has ever even once been in a fight on the streets against aggressors, and NOT as in a class/course against people who'll have lunch with you, and been stabbed or slashed?
* Of same very specific condition who has attempted to _defend_ against as much (taking the offensive is of no regard here for us), and did you fail or succeed?
* Who here has been first person witness with your own eyes to either of the above, and I mean start to finish not oh I saw a guy a block distant sitting/lying in a pool of his own blood?

When ever this subject comes up be it here or elsewhere I note there are always a strong positioning and voice from persons who have been through X, Y, or Z class/course training.
Persons who learned this or that offense and anti-offense as via the military, fighting against equally trained/skilled war fighters equally armed with tools akin to short swords.

None of this 'training' stuff though is of any _REAL_ use to civilians. Average Joe and Jane Citizen who is not walking the streets carrying a KaBar or a machete or a anything but at best a ~9" total length (blade and handle) as unfolded 'box cutter'.
Persons on the street that we might encounter are very much largely going to be untrained and have not been through a formal course/class. Street combatants training comes from street interaction and observation as well as applied practice...on the street.
They do not act nor react like folks who will have lunch with you at the end of your course/class.

Don't take my word for it though...

Just ask any person who actually has been stabbed/slashed, has been in the position of offense and/or defense, and/or has been direct first person witness to such violence as on the streets and/or in a prison (not jail nor 'detention center').

The answer to this question is simple and basic.
It's both and either.
The singular goal as on the streets, not in a combat class/course or military theater, is to STOP the actions of your attacker. How to best or most efficiently dispatch that person as in his/her ability to remain locomotive or even respirate is of low concern (!).

When being threatened or attacked by a person with any edged weapon (broken bottle, knife, pointed stick, etc.) the primary thought in the mind of the person at the opposite end is to either 1) Gain Distance to ESCAPE and/or 2) How can I make this person STOP being a threat right now!
If cutting him/her in the face with a slash by way of a razor blade will do that job then there is nothing further to discuss. This occurs, real world. If doing same with a carpet knife will get that job done then task complete. If stabbing that person in the neck, chest, or soft abdomen with a broken bottle will do it then job done.

Ask anyone who has really been under stress confronted with as much whether they were worried about being either stabbed or cut, they will tell you simply they just did not want to be _CUT_.
Bottom line.

Rather than discussing this amongst yourselves who largely have never ever seen such a situation thanks to having lived lives that are largely normal and simply average, it would be better and best to seek out the input of those who have been there and done that.
I guarantee you those persons will not have a specific camp to plant feet in. The answer is and has long been, both....and whatever else is necessary to make the attacker stop.

- Janq has been for real not in theory stabbed, defended successfully against slashes and stabs, and been first person witness to others undergoing same in win, lose, and draw efforts...all of and amongst the streets with real people who wanted my own and other folks lunch

P.S. - This is no different than anything else from using a firearm defensively to dance to sex.
It's nice to hear commentary from folks who have thoughts and theories on how things might go...But always at the end of the day bottom line what is most useful and pertinent and valuable is feedback from persons who have had both feet in directly and literally. Those persons first person reports and views are worth a hundred other persons theories on a matter. Recall how we all talked about this and that theory in HS as related to sex, and how off base and incorrect those were who had no more _real_ experience than we did as virgins.
This subject matter is no different, and is just as individual circumstance specific.
 
#15 ·
One of the issues that I think that mercop is bringing up, and he is quite correct for doing so, is that slashing is typically much more easily demonstrated as a defensive strike than a stab. What with the natural tendency for slashing while backpedalling when pressed, you even see this in saber fencing techniques, due to the aforementioned increased vitals coverage by the limbs you can further see his point.
Stabbing, on the other hand, is more difficult to state as a defensive technique due it's inherently more aggressive nature. Yes, you might have been defending yourself from an assault, but you still have to find a way to describe climbing straight up the side of your assailant's body with a long string of punctures as "I had no choice and I was in fear of my life". Everyone who has studied a striking art, let alone a stabbing-based blade system, knows that you don't get much out of your techniques if you use them as you step backwards, after all.
 
#19 ·
This has been an interesting thread. As has been mentioned, there's a difference between attacking & defending.

Stabbing, as has been mentioned, particularly in our Penal institutions, stabbing is an attacking motion usually designed to end that persons life. It tends to be more accurate & the wound is generally deeper than with a slashing attack. Plus, it usually used for more pinpoint attack of an organ, which is why they're typically fatal.

I think when one's asking about stabbing vs slashing, I'm assuming they're talking about being at the receiving end of an attack. If that's the case, slashing is "usually" the response by most people despite their training. The reason being that if you're behind the "8-ball" (The attack has come & your only response is realistically to not get stabbed/cut), then your fine motor skills are most likely going to go out the window. If you're fortunate enough to not be disabled by the attack & you're fortunate/quick enough to be able to get your knife, your natural response is most likely going to be to slash. That's mainly because you're probably going to be retreating, not attacking.

There's a big difference between a planned attack & a sudden defense. I'm not even talking about a planned defense, but a OH Shiite! I'm being attacked.

Also, everyone's different, but it also depends on the situation. I've been stabbed & personally been in several situations along with being witness to (Being part of) attacks (Firearms & knife, BTW) & it really depends on your perception at the time.

I found one is able to possibly stab (Or do some form of a fine motor skill attack) when they weren't the 1st one responding to an attack (Where it's not as imminent). If you're the 1st person being attacked (Or 1 of several, but there's no time to do anything bu react), you're most likely going to do what comes naturally to you & that is most likely to get out of the way & flail (Slashing, moving, etc). Now, maybe the dynamics might change enough that one doesn't feel as imminently in danger, then they might be able to change their tactic & actually stab.

Again, as has been said, there's no clear cut answer. Stabbing is usually more accurate, devastating, & debilitating...usually. But with stabbing, comes opening yourself to a possible counterattack, but again, if that person is now finding themselves on the receiving end, their most likely response will be to slash, not stab.

Just do an excercise with a friend/partner. Try to stab effectively while retreating.
 
#20 ·
I tend to agree that stabbing doesn't seem very defensive in nature. Nevertheless I'm going to add an experience an instructor of mine had in his instructor class with the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program.

They brought out a pig carcass and had all the students slash and stab at it, then they put a cammie blouse on it and let them slash away. These are generally some pretty big guys in this class, my instructor included, and he said the wounds through the blouse amounted to not much more than scratches. I'm not sure but I'd bet they were using the big ol' m9 bayonet that is easy to come by in Quantico, and if that isnt going to slash through a shirt effectively, I doubt an average folder will fair much better.

Just a thought.
 
#21 ·
I think anyone interested in defending themselves against a knife would be better served by getting to the gym to lift heavy, run fast, learning how to grapple with uncooperative people intent of hurting you, and learning how to KTFO people once you have achieved positional dominance.

Go find a defensive knife seminar.

Go futz around with some like minded people with a rubber knife.

Go run, lift & hit a heavy bag.

Defending yourself against a knife is not terribly complex. It's just a lot of work to put in that can be very taxing, time consuming, stressful and humbling.

Then again, the payout of not getting an HIV infected needle in your chest is kinda nice too...
 
#22 ·
My issue is most people, especially martial artists, don't want to spend all day jumping their training partner and D-Blocking them after a simple slap parry. They want to do some Fancy Dan block to inner wrist cut with a trailing blade to a neck slice in one smooth arc and then do some "cool" takedown with at least three more steps than really has to be there. Believe me, I've tried many a time to do "real" knife fighting and/or knife defense and they simply aren't interested to see how much their current techniques suck.
 
#23 ·
I had a kind of interesting instructor once, showed us how to defend against knife attacks with our hands and feet, then told us we'd get cut anyways, most likely. If we didn't want to get cut, "run faster or grab a stick and hit them from farther away". Sounded right to me.
 
#24 ·
I can agree that stabbing while retreating isnt effective but it doesnt need to be because you are retreating and therefore should be running your ass off. Unless they have a gun or friends, they arent going to be able to stop you from getting away unless you are truly cornered in which case you have to mow them down with stabs and go through them to get away. Standoffs and "knife fights" are not self defense. Even with a stand your ground law you dont want to stand your ground squaring off with knives. Just get away by any means necessary.

Also assuming you are like me and dont have (or care to spend) 10 years training in knife combat, the prison style stabbing attack and defense methods are the most usefull in a home invasion scenario because you are going to do much more damage without the skill to use "bio mechanical" cutting techniques and other such flair. I also just dont see people slashing through leather jackets and other layered clothing in a home invasion scenario feasible at all and especially not without significant training and something very large like a Kukri. A karagambit through a leather jacket, flanel shirt and a tee-shirt? I dont think so, its just gonna get hung up unless you have the skill to go for the face and I think your average joe will just get disarmed or taken down flailing his knife out in the open. The only reason I have a knife defense plan in a home invasion scenario is to buy me time to get to my gun and I think it will work well for that. I also agree with everything written on this page about the matter: http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html
 
#26 ·
A lot has been said pro and con regarding stabbing versus slashing so I won't add to that discussion. IMHO the nuiances of slashing versus stabbing in a deadly force situation takes a major back sit to the idea of trying to inflict as much damage as possible in the least amount of time to shutdown the attack as quickly as possible. That can take the form of slashes, stabs, combinations of the two in addition to empty hand strikes, knees, elbows and kicks.

Learning to do this doesn't require ninja like skills that takes a decade to develop but it does require getting off the couch, training and periodic practice.

Regarding biomechanical cutting, what looks so delicate becomes instinctive IF you train. It doesn't require surgical precision. If your surgeon's required "precision" amounts to the length of your forearm, bicep, tricep or quad I'd recommend finding another surgeon.

If you carry a firearm for self-defense train to use it as such. If you carry a knife and view it as a self-defense tool train in how to use it as effectively as possible. I am not a believer that one sizes fits all but I am a believer that regardless of the method you choose (standard grip slashing, reverse grip stabbing, REM slashing/stabbing, etc.) talking about the benefits of that method don't make-up actually training in that method.

No one can guarantee you will have access to your knife if you're attacked. Neither can they guarantee you'll have access to your gun or your best round house kick. You add as many tools to your self-defense tool box as is practical given your circumstances with the idea that what you are doing is increasing your odds should an attack come. No guarantees.

The issue of justification requires consideration whether you are doing a hip throw or sweep (potential lethal and could be characterized as the application of deadly force in court, especially if the person throw splits their head open on the concrete curb and dies) or drawing your Glock.

"Of all things, learning to use a knife in self defense should be simple."

Learning to use a knife, just like learning to use a gun or any other weapon, most effectively requires training and practice.
 
#29 · (Edited)
You really want to tick off a MMA guy when you're rolling around on the ground? Just follow the simple rule of, "When in doubt, sprawl." If you get in a position where you think they're going for something that you don't like, just spread out your base (any base you can manage at the time) as far as you can and go rigid on them. Drives those guys nuts! :hand5:

Under the great stress of the moment there is a very good chance that you'll keep machinegunning your assailant with a knife even after they've been rendered legally a non-threat. With a handgun or other ranged weapon you often have the luxury of seeing your assailant go down at a distance which cues you to end the engagement of that assailant. If you're rolling around on the ground, screaming your head off at your attacker, cutting and stabbing everything you can reach, and blood squirting all over the two of you then there is a correspondingly more difficult chance of knowing, in the heat of the moment, that this guy is done fighting and is simply flopping around in his death throes or is no longer a legally-defined threat while you machinegun a blade into a soon-to-be corpse.

With a coroner's full report in front of them and the stigma of using a knife in the first place, it won't be hard for a DA to see some mileage in running you over with the legal process if this happens to you. It's happened a lot more than you realize, and it's happened to people with a lot of training as well. All it takes is one extra poke or slash than absolutely necessary, in the opinion of a probable untrained idiot in using anything for self-defense let alone a knife, and you're in for one heck of a rough ride.
 
#30 ·
Under the great stress of the moment there is a very good chance that you'll keep machinegunning your assailant with a knife even after they've been rendered legally a non-threat. With a handgun or other ranged weapon you often have the luxury of seeing your assailant go down at a distance which cues you to end the engagement of that assailant. If you're rolling around on the ground, screaming your head off at your attacker, cutting and stabbing everything you can reach, and blood squirting all over the two of you then there is a correspondingly more difficult chance of knowing, in the heat of the moment, that this guy is done fighting and is simply flopping around in his death throes or is no longer a legally-defined threat while you machinegun a blade into a soon-to-be corpse.

With a coroner's full report in front of them and the stigma of using a knife in the first place, it won't be hard for a DA to see some mileage in running you over with the legal process if this happens to you. It's happened a lot more than you realize, and it's happened to people with a lot of training as well. All it takes is one extra poke or slash than absolutely necessary, in the opinion of a probable untrained idiot in using anything for self-defense let alone a knife, and you're in for one heck of a rough ride.
I keep trying to interject some semblance of logic into a conversation here.

My fault.

I shouldn't have offered a point of view on the aftermath of a use of force situation that comes from formal legal education, admission to the bar and the practice of law - in addition to training in daito ryu aikijujutsu kodokai & pekiti tirsia kali.

You are right. I am wrong.

I apologize.

I will probably learn something if I just ask some questions...

Can you tell me the basis of your opinions which seems to be the basis of your opinions on the handling of a use of force incident in the court system?

Police work? The practice of law? Reading Ayoob articles? Reading Law Journals & appellate cases? Watching TV & You-tube?

See, the reason I'm asking is that your statements don't quite jive with what I've learned, and I need to reconcile my inadequacies and my lack of education with feedback from people who have a clue - something I figured I had, but I may not...

Help me.
 
#31 ·
Im not sure so much knife training has to go along with someone carrying a gun all the time. That said though I never go anywhere without a knife that can at least punch halfway through an average male physique. The knife is a SHTF weapon (not unlike a handgun). If you need it you better get it out fast and start stabbing not slashing.
 
#38 ·
Too often we go on and on about getting in shape if you want to protect yourself. The weakest among us are often the most likely to be attacked. That means the infirm and disabled. My Mother is in a wheelchair from a MC accident as is one of my private students. My Dad is only 60 but walks with a cane. Everyone, including them has a right to self defense that does not rely on physical fitness, but rather awareness and mindset. Few things warm my heart as much as the vision of a disabled student jamming a pen into the eye socket of and attacker who failed the victim assessment protocol.

If your system relies on you being in good health and in top shape you may want to look at some other things too. We are only as good as our last injury or age. The most dangerous animal is the wounded animal. Now I am headed to the gym for cardio, chest & back. - George

BTW, I for one am interested in hearing about any court cases and use of force.
 
#39 ·
"2edgesword...Still teaching people how to maim others by using a knife in a non-lethal manner? How did that thread work out for you...OH, yeah"

I feel for your clients....the term isn't "non-lethal" but "less lethal" meaning the wounds inflict are less likely to result in death.

And yes, I am teaching my students to effectively defend themselves in circumstances where lethal force is justified even given all of the grey area that exist with respect to something that is defined using the words "reasonable believe".

"If you want to continue that misconseption, don't let logic or education interupt you."

Some of the most educated people on the planet haven't got an ounce of common sense. Some of the laws that exist in NY and I believe in CT defy logic when they place a requirement on a homeowner whose home has been broken into at night to access in mire moments whether the intruder in their home intends to do harm to the homeowner and members of his family. That defies logical and the facts associated with what occurs physically, mentally and emotional when this type of situation occurs.
 
#40 ·
I feel for your clients....
Envy because they have an attorney who will go to the mat for them, and understands the dynamic nature of a use of force situation, can explain the confusion to a judge so the stressors involved, the speed of the action, and has a network of experts (who have some very nice resumes) who will testify how your actions were reasonable and appropriate under the circumstances?

Hate because they get all that at reasonable rates?

And yes, I am teaching my students to effectively defend themselves in circumstances where lethal force is justified even given all of the grey area that exist with respect to something that is defined using the words "reasonable believe".
Yeah.

OK.

Well. Just keep on keeping on. If I want to train with someone in lower NY State, I'm calling Mat Tempkin.

Some of the most educated people on the planet haven't got an ounce of common sense. Some of the laws that exist in NY and I believe in CT defy logic when they place a requirement on a homeowner whose home has been broken into at night to access in mire moments whether the intruder in their home intends to do harm to the homeowner and members of his family. That defies logical and the facts associated with what occurs physically, mentally and emotional when this type of situation occurs.
You have a skewed understanding of lethal force situations. Skewed to the point your OODA loop resembles congressional accounting practices.

As I said, don't let logic or education interupt you.
 
#41 ·
"Envy because they..."

Not...pity, because he seems to refuse to want acknowledge the difference between non-lethal and less lethal.

"Well. Just keep on keeping on. If I want to train with someone in lower NY State, I'm calling Mat Tempkin."

Thank you. That means one less headache for me ;).

"You have a skewed understanding of lethal force situations. Skewed to the point your OODA loop resembles congressional accounting practices."

If it's skewed it's skewed by the facts regarding the dynamics of physical force (including deadly physical force) encounters and the common sense that says waiting for a intruder that is in my house uninvited at 2:00am to make his intentions crystal clear puts me and my family at risk and at at disadvantage with respect to defending ourselves.
 
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