This is a discussion on Knife as primary and CC firearm as back up within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by jeephipwr To have an efficient "1-stab stop" a knife needs a blade length of atleast 7 in. Granted a smaller knife in ...
As to "1-stab stop" I am not sure 100% that there is such a thing, just as there is no 100% one shot stop in any caliber handgun. I agree a bigger blade is better, but a 3inch lock blade folder is better than bare hands against a BG.
IMO a short blade knife is best used as a defensive tool to allow escape from BG or BGs, it may not be the best tool for every case, but it is a handy tool, and can be very effective.
The Military provides some effective training on one stab kills. However I was making a point that a pocket knife should NOT be used unless all your ammunition has been expended and you cant run anymore.
I'm actually pretty well trained with blades so I always have a spade with me. I don't have a permit yet so it's perfect for when I can't OC my firearm.
Even while OCing I have the spade with me.. mainly because it feels weird not having it in its usual place. I'll tell ya... it came in real handy one night!
A friend and I were walking around downtown pretty late so he could shoot off a roll for his photography show. I had my 1911 Compact holstered in the small of my back (less noticeable but still within OC guidelines) and my spade on my hip.
Well my buddy got attacked by some tweaked thug who didn't like us taking pictures. The struggle was close contact so drawing on the guy would've just been dangerous for my buddy... so a nice arm bar with a blade pressed up against his back got us out of the situation pretty quick.
Luckily some LEOs showed up (someone had called 911 when the shouting started just before the actual assault). After some questioning... and of course being disarmed.. an officer dropped us off at my car... and the thug was arrested for having drugs on his person. Great night!
So yeah... I favor having a blade for back up.
Sorry 'bout that... He's trained to attack shopping carts for some reason.
My knife is my b.u.g.. I carry either a Boker Great Knight (6" blade) or a 4" stilleto folder that I cant remember the manufacturer of. I just cant justify carrying 2 seperate firearms.
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit
I am new to this forum, (as in just the last 15 minutes.) I am also new to concealed carry, although I have grown up around guns.
For years, my concealed weapon of choice has been a good knife. I have usually carried Gerber, (their earlier productions, some of the newer stuff hasn't been up to my standards), Cold Steel, and currently a Kershaw.
My Cold Steel choices for carry is the Vaquero Grande, (which is small enough to carry in my pocket but looks like a small machete when opened) and the Cold Steel folding Tanto, which is tough enough to puncture a car door. (at least, that is what CS says. I have never been attacked by a car door so I have never put that claim to the test.) I stopped carrying the tanto because it has a plastic clip that does not always hold it securely and I would sometimes have to return to where I had recently been to look for it.
My Gerber choices of carry are the Applegate covert folder for pocket carry, the Applegate large folder for belt carry and, in the past, the Gerber Guardian boot knife, (my very first Gerber), for small of the back carry. The boot knife did serve to save me from a mugging on one occassion when I was carrying several thousands of dollars worth of merchandise for a job. I deployed the knife as the assailant was approaching. One look and the BG headed the opposite way.
My thought on the issue of utilizing a good, (i.e. not a 5 dollar made in china, bought at a gas station), knife as your carry of choice falls into these categories:
1. You can carry a pocket knife in places a gun is not allowed. (restaurants that serve alcoholic beverages, etc.)
2. When you deploy a knife with the absolute intent of using it in a possible life or death situation, the assailant will realize you are not easy pickings. Your attitude shows through and that can do more for you than your weapon can.
I grew up in and around Detroit. I never carried a firearm due to age restrictions and then the difficulty of purchasing a firearm. I did carry various knives at various times. (I was an avid knife collector for years.) I have only had 2 occassions where I ever showed my knife. The fact that I was willing to use it was enough to ward off my would be attackers. They simply went to look for easier prey.
Thanks for letting me share my thoughts.
It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it!
One punch stops are rare.
One stab stops are rare.
One shot stops are rare.
Much like a unicorn walking thru my back yard....I really do not expect to ever see one.
People often buy equipment and train for things that just are not likely to happen, and then when they employ that technique or tool and it (predictably) does not work like you expected it to , they spend time trying to figure out why it did not work like the gunshop commandos said it would instead of fighting.... there are graveyards full of people killed by folks who had already been shot or stabbed.
In fact most people do not know they have been stabbed until later. They generally report that they just thought they got punched......
So my advice is this ...
EXPECT your opponent to not be afraid of you..or your weapon.
EXPECT your weapon to not deliver a 1 shot (or stab or strike) stop.
IF in the UNLIKELY event it does stop them with one stab, strike or shot, then fine...but do not expect it to and plan accordingly for that LIKELY contingency.
With most anything be it knives or gun we need to look to get position, then acquisiton (of weapon) then resolution.
More than worrying about blade length I'd suggest you seek out competent knife instruction that involves pressure testing the skills they are teaching. Tom Sotis and Southnarc are two of the best sources for that in my opinion. But as always YMMV.
I look at the whole gun/knife thing this way....
Your pistol is a remote control power drill. It drills a hole (not knock people down) at a distance.
The knife is the "jaws of life". That is a centerline carried small fixed blade that is used to get me out of a "car wreck" I did not expect to be in. That car wreck is anytime I am tangled up in a clinch that I cannot get out of with just my hands or anytime 2 or more opponents get their hands on me.
In that situation, the knife is easier to access, easier to index and use on the target (especially if we are on the ground) harder for them to disarm and it does not malfuntion when in close contact with the target as auto pistols often do. But if the problem is recognized before they are within 3 yards , I'm getting the gun out first. They are just more effective at distance than the knife is.
But the best option is always to avoid (if possible) the situations where you will need to deploy either knife or gun. But if you do have to use it ...use it until they stop what they are doing ...DO NOT expect one blow to do it for you.
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Don't have much to add to Randy's excellent post other than to reiterate that different situations call for different tools. I don't really see my knife as a "backup" as much as it is an alternative that might be brought into play depending on what's going on.
For example, I carry my pistol in the appendix position (about 1:30 on the beltline) and a push-dagger at about 11:00 on the belt (basically the mirror image of the pistol). The result is that an almost identical movement with either hand will deploy a weapon. If I perform a drawstroke with my right hand, I end up holding a pistol. If I do the same thing with my left hand, I end up with a knife.
Outside of contact range, I'll be drawing the pistol. If I'm already at clinch/grappling/FUT range, whether the bad guy gets shot or stabbed depends on which hand I am able to free up to cleanly access a weapon.
"Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina
If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.
Distance is huge and surroundings are too. I feel you should be able to use your entire system adequately with both hands, whether a knife gun light oc kubaton hook punch, whatever. If you are not willing to train with your tools, hire a body guard and let your permit expire there is no sense in having it if you can't use it. ... I think that goes back to the " having a guitar and saying you are a musician" quote....
Just me chippin in...thanks!
"Put on the whole armor of God..."
I have been in real life situations where I had to use a gun, knife and box cutter. For me everything was based on distance. The gun situation dealt with a home break in where I deployed a shot gun and the 2 cutting instances the BGs were to close so instead of running away I became the aggressor, when I lived in a state with strict rules I carried a box cutter. I have'nt had a situation arise for me to use my pistol, it's very tough because most BGs sneak you they dont announce their intentions and if you're not paying attention they are very close to you.
Don't bring a knife to a gunfight!
Being faster with my knife than CC pistol, if it is up close then I will start with my lock blade folder and work for distance to get room for carry pistol.
Hope and Pray it never comes to any of this!!!!!!!!
NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
nor the arrow for its swiftness,
nor the warrior for his glory.
I love only that which they defend.
It should be, don't bring a knife to a sword fight.
“Most people do not really want freedom, because freedom involves responsibility, and most people are frightened of responsibility.”
“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity”