Knife as primary and CC firearm as back up - Page 4

Knife as primary and CC firearm as back up

This is a discussion on Knife as primary and CC firearm as back up within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by searcher 45 Please tell me how this is wrong thinking, if it is wrong? How many CCW or Chl folks that carry ...

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Thread: Knife as primary and CC firearm as back up

  1. #46
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by searcher 45 View Post
    Please tell me how this is wrong thinking, if it is wrong?

    How many CCW or Chl folks that carry regularly also carry a LOCK BLADE FOLDER or FIXED BLADE as a back up?

    In most cases with practice a LOCK BLADE FOLDER or FIXED BLADE can be deployed faster than CC firearm.

    If a Bad Guy wants wallet or car keys or anything that is on you, or wants to kidnap you he would have to get close enough to demand his wants, this is where A GOOD VERY SHARP DEFENSIVE KNIFE COMES IN NOT AS BACK UP BUT PRIMARY DEFENSE.

    A good sharp knife can be down right deadly, with very little concern about over penetration or missing the BG all together and downing someone else.

    CC FIREARM and DEFENSE KNIFE both have there place but for up close and personal (smell his stinking bad breath) the DEFENSE KNIFE seem to win as the weapon best suited for the task.

    As to the problem of getting his body fluids on you that will probably happen no matter what defensive weapon you use if you can smell his bad breath he will most likely bleed on you during the confrontation.

    Tell me why this is right thinking or wrong thinking!!!!!!!!!!
    I assume the suspect is armed with a weapon since you did not mentioned it in your post. If he has a knife you should gain as much distance as possible, draw your firearm and shoot as many times it takes to stop your assailant. I always feared a knife more than a firearm...I have seen what they both can do to a human body.

    If he has a gun you will have to gain control of his weapon first and redirect it away from your body...from here you will immediately draw the weapon you are more experienced with. If he is close to you where you can smell his breath then he is close enough to grab his firearm and redirect it...remember action is faster then reaction.

    What it comes down to is you must get adequate tactical training and practice the learned techniques over and over again.....You will fight the way you train no matter what....


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qdoggydogg View Post
    Don't bring a knife to a gunfight!
    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    uh, yeah...whatever.
    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    I am very tempted to put it much more strongly than that, but I concur.

    Live the fantasy, qdoggydogg!
    Third vote for: "It might be a good idea to understand the subject of the conversation before participating."

  3. #48
    Member Array Balog's Avatar
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    If the person attacking has a knife, you will be badly injured trying to use a knife against him. If the BG has a stick (hammer, pipe etc) you will be outranged and lose, most likely. If the BG has a gun, you run a serious risk of getting shot as you close. Knives are more difficult to use effectly, almost always incapacitate slower than firearms (I pulled my knife .5 seconds faster, but the bad guy was able to fight an extra 60 seconds), are at a severe disadvantage against other weapons with reach etc. Knives can be great tools in the right time and place, but are less effective than guns in most circumstances. Carry both, train both, but know that in most cases gun>knife. It's something you use only when getting the gun in action is not possible. And practice drawing your pistol faster. ;)

  4. #49
    Member Array Maudite's Avatar
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    And practice drawing your pistol faster. ;)
    There you go.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by searcher 45 View Post
    Please tell me how this is wrong thinking, if it is wrong?

    How many CCW or Chl folks that carry regularly also carry a LOCK BLADE FOLDER or FIXED BLADE as a back up?

    In most cases with practice a LOCK BLADE FOLDER or FIXED BLADE can be deployed faster than CC firearm.

    If a Bad Guy wants wallet or car keys or anything that is on you, or wants to kidnap you he would have to get close enough to demand his wants, this is where A GOOD VERY SHARP DEFENSIVE KNIFE COMES IN NOT AS BACK UP BUT PRIMARY DEFENSE.

    A good sharp knife can be down right deadly, with very little concern about over penetration or missing the BG all together and downing someone else.

    CC FIREARM and DEFENSE KNIFE both have there place but for up close and personal (smell his stinking bad breath) the DEFENSE KNIFE seem to win as the weapon best suited for the task.

    As to the problem of getting his body fluids on you that will probably happen no matter what defensive weapon you use if you can smell his bad breath he will most likely bleed on you during the confrontation.

    Tell me why this is right thinking or wrong thinking!!!!!!!!!!
    i can see the logic of this, but there's one problem with it: if you're close enough to use a knife defensively/offensively, you let them get way too close. i carry a knife or two (or three), for utility and SD; if i ever actually need them, i must have messed up somehow.

    nonetheless, a knife might be a better idea in extreme close quarters, but onbly when coupled with good H2H training. otherwise, you're nothing but a kid running with scissors.

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balog View Post
    Knives are more difficult to use effectively...
    You do realize that most prison shankings are done by untrained, but quite violent, idiots with makeshift weapons, right? And that the main reason why people survive these shankings is because the weapon being used is a sharpened toothbrush with a rubber band grip instead of a chunk of manufactured steel with a decent handle on it that they can buy for under $20 at any Wally World?
    It's also really hard to get good hits with a handgun for most people when someone is simply charging them, let alone when a chunk of high-strength steel is being pistoned into their abdomen while they get shoved back into a parked car.

  7. #52
    Member Array Balog's Avatar
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    What is this bizarre obsession people have with prison shankings? They use what they have available, in order to commit murder. The choices made by people with a full array of weapons and training to choose from, for defensive purposes bear little to no relation to prison attacks. And last I checked the object of self defense is not assassination, but incapacitation. Rendering someone incapable of fighting is much harder with a small knife than a gun, generally speaking. And it requires no grappling while stabbing like a super charged sewing machine or whatever other silly little metaphor you care to make. If knives were as (or more) effective than guns, they would be used in preference of them.They are useful tools, and in some cases are better suited than firearms. But in most cases they are sub-optimal. No matter what prisoners kill each other with.

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    The "obsession" with prison shankings, especially amongst the Combatives and "Reality Gunfighting" crowd, is that it demonstrates a series of very important points that people who take self-defense very seriously should absorb, dissolve, and work into their training:
    1) Even an untrained, but quite violent, idiot with a makeshift weapon can kill you.
    2) 21 feet is a fantasy in a real attack unless your assailant screws up somehow.
    3) It demonstrates the body language and most common attack methods so you have a better idea of what comes first.
    and 4) It shows that the "typical attack" isn't just some guy thrusting a knife at you once and holding it out there so you can grab their wrist and commence with the beatdown.

    All four of these are very important, and very valid, points that people with guns need to take quite seriously rather than thinking about that scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark".

  9. #54
    Member Array Balog's Avatar
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    I agree with those points. None pertain to why a knife is better than a gun for self defense which is the OP's point. These discussions come off (to me anyway) as "This is how inmates do it, therefore that's the best way for you to do it!" If that was not your point and I misunderstood, my apologies.

  10. #55
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balog View Post
    I agree with those points. None pertain to why a knife is better than a gun for self defense which is the OP's point. These discussions come off (to me anyway) as "This is how inmates do it, therefore that's the best way for you to do it!" If that was not your point and I misunderstood, my apologies.
    No problems at all. I know that I have a tendency to sound more ornery than I intend when I post so you probably just read me sounding like a butthead unintentionally.

    What I got from the OP, and I might very well be mistaken, was his discussion of a fixed blade knife generally being deployable faster than a handgun so it might be, in certain situations, advantageous to go for the knife to handle the situation or, far more likely, to create the space you need to effectively present your firearm defensively.
    One thing that George (mercop) hammers again and again (and again...) is that most people have no clue how hard it really is to successfully present a firearm in close quarters while under a real attack. Most shooting schools, to be frank, give you some mamby-pamby drill to build your confidence up and talk good about the school later, but George seems to be of the correct methodology in punkslapping you right off the bat with the realio-dealio D-block action and then building the toolset you need to hopefully keep it from happening again.

    As for the last bit on inmates, I think that it's good to point out what they do right as much as it is to point out what they do wrong. Overwhelming aggression, multiple strikes, and shoving their target around and into obstacles. These are all techniques that can be refined and enhanced with the correct training to enhance any self-defense repertoire.

  11. #56
    Senior Member Array Divebum47's Avatar
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    The major problem with edged weapons as a primary, or even secondary defense is that if you know anything about knife fighting you know that you will be cut. It's really a matter of how often and how seriously. I'm allergic to pain - especially my own. I hate the sight of blood, especially my own. I'd much rather hurt the bad guy and see him bleed than myself. If you are in a situation where you are forced to cut someone, then I can't imagine the use of a firearm not being an option. I carry a knife as a tool much like a flashlight. As a weapon, it would only be employed as a desperation weapon.

    YMMV
    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

  12. #57
    Member Array Balog's Avatar
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    There are two things that seem to be mixed up in these talks. A person using a knife defensively, and defending against an attack with a knife. Totally different things imho.

    I agree knives can be a good option. I can't carry at work, so most of the time I only have a knife. But given the option, I'd prefer to use a gun for social work.

    A question for the trainers: do you find guns or knives more difficult for your students to deploy effectively at very close ranges?

  13. #58
    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    I have not worked my way through all of the replies, but as someone who does carry both guns and blades, I have to wonder why one weapon is "primary" and the other a mere "backup," and why a gun is "superior" to a blade, at contact distance? A gun is only superior before contact distance is established. At contact distance, a blade can be just as formidable as a gun, if the defender has the ability. If we are grappling, and there is a disparity of force, due to his weapon, or his greater strength, I am going to deploy the weapon that is most expedient at that moment in time.

    This has nothing to do with squaring off and dueling, yet some of the replies here indicate that is what the member is thinking. If I pull a knife, it is because my gun is inaccessible at that moment in time, or we are so close that I am going to do something VERY big and fast with that blade. Perhaps, for example, I can control the direction of his gun's muzzle, but can't succeed in stripping it from his hands, and there is no room to strike or kick hard enough to change the equation. (The proverbial fight inside a phone booth...)

    FWIW, I have attended some blade and a karambit training, taught by Bram Frank and Steve Tarani, and followed it up a small bit with local guys. I do consider my handgun ability to be much stronger than my blade skills, and will generally prefer to use a handgun if at all possible, if not a long gun. I mostly attended the blade training to learn how to survive long enough, with bare hands or an impact weapon, to break contact with a knife-wielder, to create the space to draw a handgun, but learned to appreciate blades enough that I just might deploy one of my own.

    Edited to add: Let me put it this way. If I had to fight someone in a place like a restroom stall, I would rather he have a gun than a knife. If he has a gun, it is dangerous in one direction; a knife is dangerous in multiple directions. Yes, I have trained in both gun and knife disarming. Both are desperate measures, but I consider a gun disarm much more likely to succeed.

  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qdoggydogg View Post
    Don't bring a knife to a gunfight!
    Bring knives, AND guns, to gunfights. Better yet, show up a day early, scout the terrain, use the knife to construct a hidey-hole, and hit 'em with a rifle, when they show up.

    OK, story time: Once upon a time, when checking out a stolen panel van, with no rear windows, in known gang territory, and its rear doors secured with a thick bungy cord, with the ends of the cord inside the van, I used a karambit in the extended grip to cut the cord, left-handed, and as the doors swung open, had my pistol in my right hand. Because of a karambit's design, I could use my left hand to then support the right hand. Knife AND gun. There are indeed times when it helps that I tend to use certain blades as a lefty, and double-action pistols right-handed.

    The van was empty, so no gunfight happened.

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