Knife Defense against multiple opponents!

This is a discussion on Knife Defense against multiple opponents! within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My thoughts- Any monkey with a knife in his hand will likely be able to cut one or two attackers off of him with little ...

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Thread: Knife Defense against multiple opponents!

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    My thoughts-

    Any monkey with a knife in his hand will likely be able to cut one or two attackers off of him with little effort.

    The problem is when and how to get the knife out. Deployment is the key in using any tool for self-defense. Everyone sees himself or herself as a good guy; even bad guys think they are the good guys. Two scenarios-

    I think we all assume everyone is armed, even if we cannot see a weapon. So three guys with no visible weapon approach you, you know it is a robbery. At what point do you draw your knife? Before you they are close? What if they pull a gun in response? At this distance the gun wins. Often criminals will not display a weapon if they can avoid it, why take an armed robbery charge why you don't need to.

    Scenario 2- they are either closing in on you or have already made physical contact. Where is your knife? Have you trained to create the space needed to deploy it from the bottom of a dog pile? If your arm is pinned extended against you body or held closed have you trained for that? Do you have a tool on your reaction side as well?

    Since MCS concentrates on open hand, stick, knife, and gun within seven yards these types of situations come up in force on force drills all the time.

    People talk about so and so being good with a knife. Good with a knife once it is in their hand. The majority of people who kill and injure with edged weapons have no formal training. What they have is the element of offensive surprise and force of violence.

    It would make as much sense to say that someone who is good at shoot a pistol is good at defending against a pistol.

    We get people from all kinds of backgrounds from novices to masters and gurus. All that stylized stuff goes out the window once you get punched in the face or your head is slammed against the wall.

    You are about 100 times more likely to have to defend against an edged weapon you won't see than use an edged weapon of your own to defend yourself. This truth does not fill dojos that are why it is all but ignored.

    Our two-day Edged Weapon Course is as follow-
    Day I- Spontaneous Attack Survival against Edged Weapons- this is our open hand combatives course. We train against the weapons you can't see instead of just teaching open hand combatives. When you train against edged weapons there is no room for error, this makes your skill set more reliable.

    Day 2- Inverted Edge Tactics, this is our answer to the OP's question. The idea of the course is to teach you how to deploy any blade from under a dog pile by using yours and your attackers anatomy to cut your way up and out. We teach to fight like a cat, which fights to get away. Instead of a dog who fights to win.

    As far as the posters who always pipe in here about not bringing a knife to a gunfight. We teach that to. People without training also fail miserably when trying to get their gun out after or during physical contact. During force on force wearing headgear and using airsoft we have found that once you get rocked in face you loose your concentration in reference to getting your gun out.

    What is more likely that a punch in the face? How about falling backward and smacking your head. Have you practiced drawing your pistol from the ground? How about retaining it when your jacket flies back and the bad guy sees it and thinking he is the good guy goes for it?

    This is not a game with rules. It is chaos without rules. If you train with rules chance are you will not fair well, especially if you make up the rules. - George

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  3. #17
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    My thoughts-

    Any monkey with a knife in his hand will likely be able to cut one or two attackers off of him with little effort.

    The problem is when and how to get the knife out. Deployment is the key in using any tool for self-defense. Everyone sees himself or herself as a good guy; even bad guys think they are the good guys. Two scenarios-

    I think we all assume everyone is armed, even if we cannot see a weapon. So three guys with no visible weapon approach you, you know it is a robbery. At what point do you draw your knife? Before you they are close? What if they pull a gun in response? At this distance the gun wins. Often criminals will not display a weapon if they can avoid it, why take an armed robbery charge why you don't need to.

    Scenario 2- they are either closing in on you or have already made physical contact. Where is your knife? Have you trained to create the space needed to deploy it from the bottom of a dog pile? If your arm is pinned extended against you body or held closed have you trained for that? Do you have a tool on your reaction side as well?

    Since MCS concentrates on open hand, stick, knife, and gun within seven yards these types of situations come up in force on force drills all the time.

    People talk about so and so being good with a knife. Good with a knife once it is in their hand. The majority of people who kill and injure with edged weapons have no formal training. What they have is the element of offensive surprise and force of violence.

    It would make as much sense to say that someone who is good at shoot a pistol is good at defending against a pistol.

    We get people from all kinds of backgrounds from novices to masters and gurus. All that stylized stuff goes out the window once you get punched in the face or your head is slammed against the wall.

    You are about 100 times more likely to have to defend against an edged weapon you won't see than use an edged weapon of your own to defend yourself. This truth does not fill dojos that are why it is all but ignored.

    Our two-day Edged Weapon Course is as follow-
    Day I- Spontaneous Attack Survival against Edged Weapons- this is our open hand combatives course. We train against the weapons you can't see instead of just teaching open hand combatives. When you train against edged weapons there is no room for error, this makes your skill set more reliable.

    Day 2- Inverted Edge Tactics, this is our answer to the OP's question. The idea of the course is to teach you how to deploy any blade from under a dog pile by using yours and your attackers anatomy to cut your way up and out. We teach to fight like a cat, which fights to get away. Instead of a dog who fights to win.

    As far as the posters who always pipe in here about not bringing a knife to a gunfight. We teach that to. People without training also fail miserably when trying to get their gun out after or during physical contact. During force on force wearing headgear and using airsoft we have found that once you get rocked in face you loose your concentration in reference to getting your gun out.

    What is more likely that a punch in the face? How about falling backward and smacking your head. Have you practiced drawing your pistol from the ground? How about retaining it when your jacket flies back and the bad guy sees it and thinking he is the good guy goes for it?

    This is not a game with rules. It is chaos without rules. If you train with rules chance are you will not fair well, especially if you make up the rules. - George
    This sounds like an advertisement
    "You fight the way you Train"

  4. #18
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    re:black knife

    Quote Originally Posted by black knife View Post
    This sounds like an advertisement
    Yeah, but Mercop makes such good sense most of the time I almost feel like getting out my checkbook.

    Same for you black knife. Love reading your posts.

  5. #19
    New Member Array Orance Fine's Avatar
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    A friend of mine was privileged to train privately under Guro Felix Valencia (see: "Masters of the Blade") for the five years it took to be awarded full Guro rank in the Valencia Lameco Knife System. I asked him the question posed by Black Knife. His answer was was as follows(paraphrased): "Nobody successfully fights multiple opponents, either with a blade or a gun. One fights serial opponents. First one, then the next, then the third, etc." Personally, I'd never thought of it quite like that, before.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    black knife, since I teach it for a living and make no secret about that I guess it is an advertisement.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orance Fine View Post
    His answer was was as follows(paraphrased): "Nobody successfully fights multiple opponents, either with a blade or a gun. One fights serial opponents. First one, then the next, then the third, etc." Personally, I'd never thought of it quite like that, before.
    He sounds like Fran Means, the guru I trained in Arnis under. This is pretty much the same quote she gave me on the subject.

  8. #22
    Member Array BlindBlade's Avatar
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    Post advertisement like that.....

    would make the newspaper worth reading.IMO.

    Needs little cartoon frames,
    like the old "KICKING SAND " ads.
    it good to see some citizens are
    getting some type of training.

    as for the defending against multithugs.
    even one thug.training while dancing around
    with a "teacher" on a padded mat. now, becomes REAL.the pupil most likely will fall.

    YES IT IS POSSIBLE TO DEFEND YOURSELF
    WITH A BLADE AGAINST MULTIPLE ATTACKERS.

  9. #23
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Yeah, but Mercop makes such good sense most of the time I almost feel like getting out my checkbook.

    Same for you black knife. Love reading your posts.
    Thanks
    "You fight the way you Train"

  10. #24
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    black knife, since I teach it for a living and make no secret about that I guess it is an advertisement.
    Who did you train with for stick and knife fighting?. Not including seminars.
    "You fight the way you Train"

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    maybe this is a thought from being in the bronx but whould not a pice of trash (ie. a pipe, trash can, brick,) be a beater option then a knife if it can be picked up quickly. honestly knives have left my mind as defensive wepons when in NYC so i honestly look for enviremental wepons becuse i can not posses a knife unless i am on EMT duty.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by black knife View Post
    Who did you train with for stick and knife fighting?. Not including seminars.
    Nobody, I have no rank, no certificates. How many times have you used or defended against a edged weapons or stick in the street? Me I have actually defended against a edged weapon three times, I blame my success on lots of luck and aggression. I have hit and choked lots of people with and ASP. I have some ideas on what will work. - George

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Like George said, I have no rank. No belts. I do have first hand street experience with the MCS method, and I'm quite confident in what I've learned from George. Simply stated, it works.

  14. #28
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Nobody, I have no rank, no certificates. How many times have you used or defended against a edged weapons or stick in the street? Me I have actually defended against a edged weapon three times, I blame my success on lots of luck and aggression. I have hit and choked lots of people with and ASP. I have some ideas on what will work. - George
    I have defended myself against a bat and a piece of a 2x4 but no sticks...as far as knives, none yet but my day will come....its a good thing the three individuals that attacked you did not know how to use a knife.
    "You fight the way you Train"

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    I guess the same goes for the guy wielding the bat and the 2X4 who attacked you. I will say again, how many people that kill or injure with an edged weapon have previous formal training that would be acceptable to your standards?

    It is kind of simple, the knife is a contact distance weapon and the human arm is capable of three things, pushing, pulling, and swinging. If you do those with a knife in your hand and the blade hits flesh a cut occurs. Knowing how to "use" a knife in the dojo has little to do with defending against one in an alley.

    For two many people their art becomes a religion. When they hear something, no matter how well articulated that goes against it they start to melt down.

    Either the person doing the talking about another "way" does not get it, or even worse they have to admit that they have spent time, and money worshiping a false god.

    Open minded people have a way, but that does not stop them from looking for a better way and adopting if it works better.

    Black Knife, since you want to question my background I have some questions for you. Your bio says you are a former deputy for an agency in California. What were your duties? Patrol, SWAT, training? How long were you on the job? Forget it, I found it http://www.combativeforceoptionsgrou...nstructor.html Interesting that you are no longer on the job but out of all your accomplishments you decide to use a picture of you in a uniform you no longer wear on your homepage. How much patrol did you work? Sounds like you did lots of courtroom security, or am I wrong?

    - George

  16. #30
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    I guess the same goes for the guy wielding the bat and the 2X4 who attacked you. I will say again, how many people that kill or injure with an edged weapon have previous formal training that would be acceptable to your standards?

    It is kind of simple, the knife is a contact distance weapon and the human arm is capable of three things, pushing, pulling, and swinging. If you do those with a knife in your hand and the blade hits flesh a cut occurs. Knowing how to "use" a knife in the dojo has little to do with defending against one in an alley.

    For two many people their art becomes a religion. When they hear something, no matter how well articulated that goes against it they start to melt down.

    Either the person doing the talking about another "way" does not get it, or even worse they have to admit that they have spent time, and money worshiping a false god.

    Open minded people have a way, but that does not stop them from looking for a better way and adopting if it works better.

    Black Knife, since you want to question my background I have some questions for you. Your bio says you are a former deputy for an agency in California. What were your duties? Patrol, SWAT, training? How long were you on the job? Forget it, I found it instructor Interesting that you are no longer on the job but out of all your accomplishments you decide to use a picture of you in a uniform you no longer wear on your homepage. How much patrol did you work? Sounds like you did lots of courtroom security, or am I wrong?

    - George
    7 1/2 years patrol... 1 year court security....rest jail ops.....4 1/2 years CDC correctional officer level 3 prison.

    So you are stating that you don't need a martial arts background to teach defensive tactics.....interesting concept
    "You fight the way you Train"

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