This is a discussion on Knife Defense against multiple opponents! within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Stop the bickering. l l l l \/...
OK, the mods have spoken. I believe I have made my point. And no since many "martial arts" have nothing to do with the realities of what police will actually face, and none that I know of are done while wearing a pistol and a radio, or for that matter teach you to control someone with help from others, no I don't believe that you need martial arts experience to teach DT. I would rather have a veteran police officer teaching it than someone with a book of certificates and a wall of belts and patches.- George
I was once attacked by a sausage wielding maniac. Thanks to my training, aggression, and love of tube shaped meats, I won the day.
Note: I am completely self-taught in my sausage defense tactics, and also have no rank, certificates, or awards. Just a love of tubular meats.
Slight diversion, and yes guys, I like and respect you both so please listen to JD.
OK--for diversion and whatever amusement value there is in this:
Black Knife commented, "I have defended myself against a bat and a piece of a 2x4 but no sticks."
Well, yesterday we were fooling around in class with long pole defending against Arnis sticks.
Anyway, I had one of those experiences where you sort of look down on yourself and watch yourself from outside the scene (hope that makes sense, I don't mean hallucinations). Well, from that "out of body" experience we looked like a well rehearsed Jackie Chan movie scene. I kicked my instructor back and ran the long pole against an imaginary second attacker at my back, then attacked my instructor again with the long pole. Great fun and neat choreography, with a little Krav thrown in as well.
O.K. Now, as you all know, I'm no youngster and have 42 years on my instructor. Today he cancelled my class. He went to the doctor with a backache. (Hope he is alright.)
Lesson learned--- if you can't beat them, wear them out--- they don't make kids the way they used to.
And listen to JD :)
Hi guys, BK, Mercop, I have spoke with both of you and you know my background, here's my theory on fighting multiple attackers.
Hit the biggest or mouthiest one as hard as you can and use him as an example, using a blending type method(aikido kickin in) redirect the threats, if you have a blade and are using it this becomes very handy to cut and move.
"using" a knife in the dojo does have its advantages over the flail of no training, you know what to aim for, you know how to grip and you have a better working knowledge of how to hold the blade and how to not cut because of blood spray in your face(hate to catch HIV from a carotid cut or for any reason). I think it pays off having some kind of training.
Traditional martial arts weapon training probably wont be used in the street, except maybe the basics, block and strike type stuff, not many people carry kamas and swords now a days.
Having a martial arts background doesn't help in teaching DT all the time, Having a well rounded background in MA could help out, it shows you the options you have, and how crappy some LEO DT can be.
Not knocking anyone,just my opinions. Combative hands on down and dirty MA is where you learn the most, sport fights(point fighting) doesn't help much, and even the grappling arts don't give you much against multiple attackers. BK correct me if i am wrong.
If you look at the PPCT tactics, it is really similar to a lot of MA, weapon retention with a pistol is very similar to some sword retention from the ninja and samurai. Bottom line I guess is, What works, works, if you train hard you fight hard, get it ingrained.
Thanks, MODS sorry if I am out of line at all.
"Put on the whole armor of God..."
the best training i found out against multiples is a real life attack from multiple attackers( im quite a few of u here been in big group brawls or jumped by more than one person i have)nothing really can prepare u for that because the people u train with still hold back ( a little) as opposed the guys in the street want to kick the life out of u . but traing and trying to prepare is a WHOLE LOT better than none if the only thing i could throw was a good right cross i ll take that over nothing
please dont think my typing is how i talk. from now on i think ill let my wife type what i want to say. a t rex can type better than me
My thoughts on Defensive Tactics MODERN COMBATIVE SYSTEMS - Police Defensive Tactics
I understand all the discussion on multiple attackers, and it is good, but as stated you will need to deal with people one at a time. This takes the mindset to learn to do damage, and move through one person to the next, not get stuck on open person.
My first civilian law enforcement job was with the Baltimore School Police, I learn about working in crowds at basketball and football games. The environment was simple, about 1% would get involved in the initial fight but the other 99% would not hesitate to hit you or put a boot to your head if you were on the ground. Mini riots at the end of games (or in the middle) were not uncommon. Here is what I found out-
You cannot afford over extend yourself, if you do you will loose your balance, and you are twice the target when you are on the ground.
Whenever you put any thing above your head or outside your silhouette it will be grabbed and pull you off balance. During that moment of time the tool in your hand is your primary tool regardless of what else you have. You will focus on the tool and fight over it. In the mean time your elbows are likely up and a gun whether initial concealed or not will likely be exposed (concealment garment falls back or is pulled above your gun).
These are just some thoughts.
Inverted Edge Tactics has morphed into just edged weapons because of the things listed above. Whenever your elbows are above your nipple line or out to the sides you are weak. This situation is created with traditional edged weapons training. Any movement outside the silhouette of your attacker is wasted and exposes your center line. The space between the body and the arm that is created when your arm comes up or out to the side is a natural grappling target. Someone with luck or training will be able to isolate your arm up and out of the game.
Picture yourself hunched over with three people on you. You are going to be lower then them. If you are able to get a knife out you need to be able to cut up and out, not down and in. When using IET you are limited to basically on cyclic angle. When the blade comes up you fell it hit something, likely the crotch or armpit of your attacker, set the hook, pull/rip and repeat. This is default targeting. The whole time you are protecting your center line.
If you don't have a training knife just get in the position with a few buddies, to fight out of the position do your hands come up from below or down from the top.
The problem with multiple attackers is they can extend your arm above your head or next to your body. A knife is a contact distance weapon and needs movement to be effective. IET is how you achieve it.
Yes, this is another commercial. I have seen people of every age, size, and background cut their way out of these types of situations in training. I believe in it- George
You wrote: "Any movement outside the silhouette of your attacker is wasted and exposes your center line." What about when moving to the opponent's dead side? Maybe I'm not exactly understanding what you meant. If I can get outside to the dead side I've got kicks, arm bars, disarms, chokes, and a fast getaway. I've also placed myself in a position where I can keep the guy back and also draw.
The other point you made which has me thinking a bit was the comment about raising the elbows above the nipples. In Krav' we use elbows to neck, chin, mouth. Here again, the elbows are brought up above the nipples. I'm more comfortable with that then with the arms out part of the spinning hammer fist, but I see your point about what can happen when elbows come up.
By movement outside the silhouette I mean that the longer the path of your hand the more room there is for it to be defended against.
I am a huge fan of using elbows as well, the trick is to bring them back fast, not leave them hanging out there.- George
A military knife should have a blade of 6 inches or more. Enough to penetrate the cardiac sac.
It also relies on intentional targeting instead of default targeting. We are annoyed by people who talk about how we should shoot a knife wielding attacker in the arm or leg. In another breath we cannot expect anyone to be able to target an internal organ with a knife.
The last stabbing fatality I was involved in was outside of a bar. The "victim" was stabbed in the side of the neck with a 2 inch blade. It was winter time and although he had a heavy leather jacked on his neck was left exposed. The attacker was very surprised that his actions resulted in death.- George