OC spray? what to look for?

This is a discussion on OC spray? what to look for? within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Thanks guys that helps a lot. I think I will go with the fox labs fog. Theres so many different kinds, I'm sure they are ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Adkjoe's Avatar
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    Thanks guys that helps a lot. I think I will go with the fox labs fog. Theres so many different kinds, I'm sure they are all effective but it's a bit intimidating browsing page after page and have no idea what your looking at. I will get 2 cans as well so I can practice with one. I probably won't spray myself but I would like to get hit with a little of it so I know what to expect if I ever have to spray anyone.
    Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont allows anyone
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  3. #17
    Member Array moparoutlaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LethalStang View Post
    Are you saying the foam is your "in the car" setup or is there something else im unaware of?? I was thinking of buy a couple of the 2oz. fliptops in stream for me and the GF to keep in the car.
    The only reason we chose to have foam located in the car, is that we have a five year old and the OC is located near the child's door. In case the wife had to deploy the OC in the close proximity of our child, cross contamination would be a no no...

  4. #18
    Ex Member Array jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    i'd try finding one in 9mm, at least. i prefer my OC spray in .45ACP, personally.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    I like the sprays with the tops like the Fox or MSI/Mace brand. No chance of firing it in the wrong direction and easy to use under stress. It works if you fire with your thumb or trigger finger. I keep a small MSI 10% in my gear at work for in case of "Angry dog".

    I'm not a fan of the fog sprays, too much backspray in any wind. I'm sensitive to OC. I'd use the foam if anybody made it in a keychain sized spray. Yes, they can flick it at you, but nothing says you have to stay within range after you use it. You should be moving, and preferably away, after.

    That said, after my MSI expires or gets used, I believe I'll try the Kimber launcher. I like the way that works. Good range, little backspray.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array jframe38's Avatar
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  7. #21
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    I used OC extensively as a cop and can make several recommendations. Do NOT get the foam. As a previous poster mentioned, it can be wiped off and thrown back at you. I wouldn't really recommend the fog either, as it is more susceptible to the wind.

    No matter what, you may get some on you. You should get used to this. If you're going to carry, get sprayed and learn to overcome it. The first time, you might think you are dying, but with repeated exposure you can nearly become immune. It will still hurt like heck, but you can deal with it.

    OC is extremely effective against 90% of assailants. You spray them, and most folks will instantly drop to the ground, or at least within 2 seconds. However, it is less effective against those who are under the influence of illegal drugs, e.g. PCP, Meth, Crack, etc. It may also be less effective on those using prescription psychotropic meds.

    Go for something 10% if you can get it. You can also get away with a lower % if it's coupled with CS. I always had great effects with Freeze +P. It's only 1% OC, but it's got 1% CS. The CS opens the pores instantly and makes the OC far more effective.

    OC is a great tool and is a great way to stop most attacks without having to use deadly force. Just don't rely on it alone to save your life. Always check your local laws.
    NRA Certified Instructor (6 years)
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  8. #22
    Member Array hengst's Avatar
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    Good on point instructions. I prefer oc and cs mix, that stuff will turn a grown man into a little crybaby, most of the time.
    Great point about the foam, colored dies are not bad, hard for the assailant to wash off fo later i.d.
    And yes, grab a buddy,a garden hose and get ready for the pain. Might as well test it. It is better to find out in training how that stuff feals as opposed to a little cross contamination and you flip out. test yourself even if you test the lowest strength cheapest stuff you can get, helps to be familiar.
    Led By Love Of Country

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Here is an older blog post- I will be happy to answer any questions.
    “My wife won’t carry a gun, what about OC” | Modern Combative Systems Blog

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    I have to agree with George about the tougher can/sprayer. While the optimal result of OC is for your assailant to fall into a non-threatening bubbling pile of mucus, the chances of an assailant barging through and getting their mitts on you are still fairly high. Keep in mind that most attacks happen at close range, in enclosed areas where the victim can't easily escape (read: sidestep or withdraw to get away), and at the timing of the attacker.
    With this in mind, I can't help but drive home the point that George made in reminding you that having a can or sprayer that can be used as an impact weapon is a huge bonus in such a situation. If you think your typical untrained woman sucks with an impact weapon, imagine how much worse off she would be if the tool already in her hand blows up and she now has to fight bare-handed with OC running down her arm. Her first reaction will be to hit the assailant with the object in her hand in this situation anyway, right?

  11. #25
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Here is an older blog post- I will be happy to answer any questions.
    “My wife won’t carry a gun, what about OC” | Modern Combative Systems Blog
    George, I disagree with the argument that the post puts forward (actually, I'm not completely sure what argument the post is making). In order:

    1) "OC to be effective during a spontaneous attack sitatuion has got be be pre-deployed."

    -I'm not sure exactly what you are thinking wrt "spontaneous attack" sitauation, but the statement is either false or it applies equally to deployment of a firearm. In either case, it is not an argument that one shouldn't carry OC.

    2) "use of OC without proper mindset can lead to even more violence."

    -Use of any weapon without proper mindset can lead to escalation of violence.

    3) "OC[...]may be prohibited in [public places]"

    -Same with firearms.

    4) "A guide for citizen use of force should look something like this-
    Verbal commands, Impact tools, OC, Firearms/Edged Weapons"

    You offer no argument for why impact tools should come before OC. I'd argue that for a citizen, if the impact tool has failed, OC will not be an option. This is because impact tools are used within striking distance. If the citizen is losing the battle within striking range, he/she will unlikely be able to deploy OC.

    However, since OC can be deployed before the assailant is within striking range, the citizen may be able to deploy an impact tool for follow-up use if the attacker continues forward.

    Finally, you say "OC can be very effective when backed up by a firearm and quite possible save you from having to shoot someone."

    I agree with the very first part of your statement "OC can be very effective..." and the last part "...possible save you from having to shoot someone." But the middle part "when backed up by a firearm" doesn't really mean anything. OC is either effective on its own or it isn't. Of course this doesn't mean that it is effective 100% of the time. Firearms are not effective 100% of the time either.

    In the end, if all you are arguing is that you need to have the proper mindset if you are going to carry a weapon, well no disagreement from me. If you are arguing that one should not carry OC as their only weapon, then I think the argument falls short.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  12. #26
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    George, I disagree with the argument that the post puts forward (actually, I'm not completely sure what argument the post is making). In order:

    4) "A guide for citizen use of force should look something like this-
    Verbal commands, Impact tools, OC, Firearms/Edged Weapons"

    You offer no argument for why impact tools should come before OC. I'd argue that for a citizen, if the impact tool has failed, OC will not be an option. This is because impact tools are used within striking distance. If the citizen is losing the battle within striking range, he/she will unlikely be able to deploy OC.
    Have to agree with ya Bm7b5.

    For Law Enforcement, established case law and national training standards always place the use of chemical irritants lower on the Force Continuum than Impact Weapons. Impact weapons have more potential for use as deadly force than do chemical irritants, while chemical irritants have a further deployment range than do impact weapons.

    I never once drew my baton until OC had first been utilized. Besides, baton deployments are just a lawsuit and media *poo*storm waiting to happen.

    Same thing in the military, where my role includes teaching the Force Continuum.

    For reference:

    FORCE CONTINUUM
    Presence
    Verbal commands
    Controlling techniques (soft hands)
    Sprays (OC/CS)
    Defensive techniques (hard hands)
    Impact weapons (baton, nightstick, etc)
    Deadly force (firearms, blade, lethal hand-to-hand/impact weapon strikes)

    Some departments and ROE place hard-hand techniques lower than sprays.

    While this has largely been employed for Law Enforcement evaluations of justifiable use of force, I can't really see any difference for a citizen who is trained to use these techniques. I don't think that a civilian would necessarily be held to the same standard as a commissioned LEO or servicemember, but it would ultimately be up to the investigating officer, the DA, and then a judge and jury. Anything you can do to show that you demonstrated restraint and used the lowest level of force necessary to stop the threat can only tilt the scales in your favor.

    I can't recommend using deadly force when a lower level will stop the threat. YMMV.

    Semper Fi
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  13. #27
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    I have vast experience with OC. Most of the time it was being sprayed by other officers who were too quick to use it. I have a very severe reaction to it, so bad that in the academy they thought they were going to have to take me to the ER. Even with my bad reaction too it I never had any doubt I could retain my weapon. What it did was make me concentrate of fighting my touch.

    OC does absolutely nothing against the mechanistic of a physical attack. OC cannot block a punch. When used under stress people don't do a few second burst, they empty the can and stand flat footed waiting to see what effect it has.

    It seems that many here carry OC and have for a long time. Has anyone here used it during an attack? The vast majority of the time it is used by police it is in stand off "I ain't going to jail" scenarios.

    Anyone here every sprayed it and had it blow back in your face? The typical reaction is for your hands to come up to your face leaving your gun exposed? Also feels real good when it gets under contacts.

    The reason impact tools should come first is because they can be carried in the hand without drawing attention, things like flashlights and pens.

    With all the quality and non quality OC out there how come we don't see all kinds of stories about it being used.

    HardCorps79, so you are saying on several occasions you saw OC fail to work and had to trasiton to your baton, correct? So the OC failed to work and you had to go to an impact weapon right? Why not just use the impact weapon to begin with? Do you really think a citizen is going to go from OC, to impact weapon, to firearm? I don't know of one case where that has happened.

    I am sorry that you worked somewhere that the baton was so looked down upon. People that are afraid to use their batons will be afraid to use their guns too. Enter the new breed that likes to spray and Taze everyone.

    There are lots of things you can do with a baton besides striking to gain compliance. And no, not silly joint locks. You can jab with it in addition to two other favorites of mine, body chokes and limb crushing. Nope, they are not in the books. The stuff taught to police for using the baton is about as worthless as the paper it is written on. It is put out there to defend against litigation, not protect the officers. Everything we know about traditional stick fighting is washed out of the curriculum. The very basics like ready position and telling the officer to target large muscle groups. As a general rule edged weapons seek flesh, and impact weapons seek bones. Once good crack to the back of the hand, or ball of the ankle can end a fight fast. Police carried night sticks and espantoons long before guns and did a fine job with them. There is nothing that can replace the stick for law enforcement, or for anyone for that matter.

    Not trying to convince anyone of my opinion, just putting some thoughts out there. If it were up to me all police would still carry saps and blackjacks. Here is a thought for the criminal-

    Don't break the law
    Do exactly as you are told to by the officer

    Do these and the chance of having force used against is very small.- George

  14. #28
    Member Array LethalStang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    There are lots of things you can do with a baton besides striking to gain compliance. And no, not silly joint locks. You can jab with it in addition to two other favorites of mine, body chokes and limb crushing. Nope, they are not in the books. The stuff taught to police for using the baton is about as worthless as the paper it is written on. It is put out there to defend against litigation, not protect the officers. Everything we know about traditional stick fighting is washed out of the curriculum. The very basics like ready position and telling the officer to target large muscle groups. As a general rule edged weapons seek flesh, and impact weapons seek bones. Once good crack to the back of the hand, or ball of the ankle can end a fight fast. Police carried night sticks and espantoons long before guns and did a fine job with them. There is nothing that can replace the stick for law enforcement, or for anyone for that matter.

    Exactly. Anybody who has trained in a certain form of martial arts (which is what baton use fall under) know that there is the pretty by the book manuevers, and then there is reality. In Hapkido, i learned numerous different joint manipulations that work wonderfully if the attacker stands there and lets you do it. But in reality its the large bones joints that should be focused on such as the shins, forearms, shoulders, and sternum. Many teach baton use for choke holds too but i find that in this particular case it is easier to learn it without it. I can put you down on the ground in seconds with no weapons at all, but batons definitely have their place too.
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  15. #29
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    Mercop-

    First, let me say that I really appreciate all of your thought provoking posts on here. You have a keen insight and experience to back it up. Unusual amongst a good number of net-ninjas on other forums. So, I don't take your points lightly. If I can respectfully address each of your points, I'd like to offer an alternative point of view for folks to consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Has anyone here used it during an attack?
    Yes. More times than I can count. I never once used OC to gain compliance for cuffing someone up. I only ever used it when being physically attacked. It worked 95+% of the time. The ones it didn't work on were exceptionally large (6'2"+ and 230lbs+) repeat offenders who had often built a similar immunity as cops who use it frequently. It also was ineffective on people under the influence of certain narcotics, and had diminished effects on Signal 3 folks on psychotropic meds.


    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Anyone here every sprayed it and had it blow back in your face? The typical reaction is for your hands to come up to your face leaving your gun exposed? Also feels real good when it gets under contacts.
    More often than I can count. I learned to develop a certain immunity to it. It still caused a fair amount of tearing, coughing, and minor skin irritation, but I learned to deal with it. Ditto on the contacts. OUCH!

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    With all the quality and non quality OC out there how come we don't see all kinds of stories about it being used.
    It simply doesn't make a great news story, and often it's use isn't reported to cops. I would be curious to hear any accounts of civilians using it and it failing. That would be valuable information. Anyone?...

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    HardCorps79, so you are saying on several occasions you saw OC fail to work and had to trasiton to your baton, correct? So the OC failed to work and you had to go to an impact weapon right? Why not just use the impact weapon to begin with? Do you really think a citizen is going to go from OC, to impact weapon, to firearm? I don't know of one case where that has happened.
    On a mere handful of occasions as previously mentioned. As I mentioned in my Force Continuum comments, I don't expect a private citizen to be held to the same standards as an LEO, but I personally believe that if you can use the least amount of force, you should. In answer to your question, I wouldn't use an impact weapon right away because it inherently causes injury. OC's effects are not legally classified as "injury" anymore than pain-compliance techniques or spanking a child with your hand. Pain does not equal injury. If I don't have to injure someone to stop the threat, I won't. Just my position. I believe it's a more defensible position in court. But I support others' right to disagree. It's their life, this is mine.


    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    I am sorry that you worked somewhere that the baton was so looked down upon.
    Me too. The politics of the particular department are one of many reasons I left the LE field.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    People that are afraid to use their batons will be afraid to use their guns too. Enter the new breed that likes to spray and Taze everyone.
    I completely disagree. I have no qualms whatsoever shooting someone who is using or threatening to use deadly force/serious bodily harm against me. But as I mentioned in my previous post, there are situations where force is justified, but not DEADLY force. There are clear distinctions made both in statutory and moral law.
    And while I agree that too many cops are eager to spray and taze, my concern is that they use it due to a lack of training in both civil rights, and hand-to-hand tactics. It is over-used in both cases. I've seen guys use it as a pre-emptive measure to someone who was verbally protesting being arrested, though they displayed no hostile act. I've also seen it used to take down someone who should have been shot. So, on this point, it seems we agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    There are lots of things you can do with a baton besides striking to gain compliance. And no, not silly joint locks. You can jab with it in addition to two other favorites of mine, body chokes and limb crushing. Nope, they are not in the books. The stuff taught to police for using the baton is about as worthless as the paper it is written on. It is put out there to defend against litigation, not protect the officers. Everything we know about traditional stick fighting is washed out of the curriculum. The very basics like ready position and telling the officer to target large muscle groups. As a general rule edged weapons seek flesh, and impact weapons seek bones. Once good crack to the back of the hand, or ball of the ankle can end a fight fast. Police carried night sticks and espantoons long before guns and did a fine job with them. There is nothing that can replace the stick for law enforcement, or for anyone for that matter.
    Again, I think we would agree on this, too. There is far more to baton/stick techniques than is taught in traditional LEO academies. My father was trained in stick techniques while living in Asia for nearly two decades. He carried a "walking stick" for years while living in one of the nation's highest crime urban regions. He taught me a thing or two. Additionally, in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program we train with batons for both non-lethal and lethal application. The scope far surpasses what was presented in the LE academy.

    Once again, I appreciate your comments. You present valid points. I simply take a different view for my own personal defense which I believe to be well-supported by my experience and training.

    Semper Fi
    NRA Certified Instructor (6 years)
    Former LEO/DOD Contractor
    Active Duty Marine (Martial Arts Instructor)
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  16. #30
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    When used under stress people don't do a few second burst, they empty the can and stand flat footed waiting to see what effect it has.
    Whether firing OC or a firearm, emptying one's ammunition and standing flat-footed waiting to see the effect simply reflects poor training and skills. Whether it is OC or firearm, one should shoot, move, communicate, scan. Repeat as necessary.

    The argument that one should not attempt to use OC because it sometimes fails to completely stop an attacker fails to acknowlege that firearms and impact weapons also fail to stop attacks at times. The argument that OC doesn't stop the mechanism of a physical blow isn't particularly relevant. Running doesn't stop the mechanism of a physical blow either, but is a valid option. The argument fails to acknowlege the skill and physicality differences required to use impact weapons of the type a civilian will carry vs OC. It fails to acknowlege that one can use both OC and impact weapons.

    That fact that you felt you could retain your weapon after being sprayed with OC is not relevant as taking a person's weapon isn't the goal of the person deploying OC.

    With that said, I have 0 experience using OC or being sprayed with it, so I'm admittedly being a bit of a keyboard commander on the subject. Your experience and expertise are clearly more expansive than mine. But where experts disagree, layman like me are left to figure out which expert to go with. Lacking real-world experience, I guess I'm looking for the best line of thinking I can find.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

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