Expandable baton's?

This is a discussion on Expandable baton's? within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mercop I landed several power strikes on his thigh with no effect. A strike to the side of his knee and ball ...

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Thread: Expandable baton's?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    I landed several power strikes on his thigh with no effect. A strike to the side of his knee and ball of his ankle folded him like a lawn chair.
    You would think that almost 20 years of UFC and UFC-type fights with plenty of leg kicks by supremely trained (and often ridiculously strong for their size) fighters would teach police trainers that striking muscles is largely a waste of time unless you're going for the long grind, but they seem unwilling or unable to learn form other's hard-earned experience.

    Pretty frustrating, really...

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  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    You would think that almost 20 years of UFC and UFC-type fights with plenty of leg kicks by supremely trained (and often ridiculously strong for their size) fighters would teach police trainers that striking muscles is largely a waste of time unless you're going for the long grind, but they seem unwilling or unable to learn form other's hard-earned experience.

    Pretty frustrating, really...
    I think the idea was to go for pain-based compliance instead of physical incapacitation. PC attempt to limit permanent harm to a noncompliant suspect.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    There you have it.

  5. #19
    Member Array irish_ironsight's Avatar
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    I use a 21" Monadnock, but I have changed out the tail cap to include a Hindi cap, it serves 2 roles, one defensive and the 2nd if you are forced to drop it before escalating your level of force, it wont roll away.


    THE EDIT:
    I should have added, if you are going to use one, GET TRAINED, check the local law's ! most important of all is to strike and wipe away from your target, allow the full transfer of the imparted energy to be absorbed into your target !
    Last edited by irish_ironsight; February 5th, 2010 at 08:48 AM. Reason: details
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  6. #20
    VIP Member Array frankmako's Avatar
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    they issue me the small asp in 1990. gave me training and send me out to do good with a new tool. times when i had to use it, i was thinking that i sure wish i had my old s&w sap back on the raid belt. the only times i have seen one work is when it hits bone (knee, ankle, elbow, head).
    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsite View Post
    Its actually Mechanical force... Baton, night stick, OC, Cuffs. There is, or was a certification course that had to be taken to carry it.
    it depends on the state in which on is residing whether or not it can be carried

    I forgot to add in my previous post.......I knew there were some training classes out there somewhere.
    I got my certification in the academy and get 're-certified' every 2 years. I carry a 26" ASP on duty.

    I haven't used my on a human yet.
    They also make good door knockers and window openers.

    My first FTO was very fond of whipping out the baton at the drop of a hat. We busted some vandals and one fled on foot while we both were taking care of the other two. After we had our two cuffed the idiot 3rd vandal actually got disoriented running through the apartment complex and ran right back to us. My FTO whipped out the baton and the BG slowed up as he saw that saying 'ok ok' at that moment the pursuing officer blindside tackled him. It was quite humorous.

    I agree with the strike points. The intended target is the nerves running through the major muscles but if not hit accurately the pain may or may not gain compliance, especially if the BG is on something.
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  8. #22
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    I carry a 21"ASP on duty, and usually if I go walking with the wife/kids. Expandable batons are great tools, given the proper training. As previously said, they are great knockers, window "openers", I have found them to be one of the best tools for use with dogs.

    In my training, we learned that the best targets are the limbs. I have found the lower leg to be my favorite target. But be careful, only use them when necessary, they break bones.

    Make sure as has been said, (and is worthy of another repeat), to check local laws, these are serious weapons, not toys as some around my local area seem to believe.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    I agree with the strike points. The intended target is the nerves running through the major muscles but if not hit accurately the pain may or may not gain compliance, especially if the BG is on something.
    And there lies the rub. On the thigh you can either hit the Sciatic Nerve (which sucks) and/or the gap where the Vastus Lateralis and Rectus Femoris roll into each other (which can suck for over a month if done right) or you're just wasting your time going for a Charlie Horse instead of giving them the good news. Add that most officers I see swing the baton like a baseball bat instead of using short chops with it like they're supposed to and targeting becomes even more difficult.

    I have spent same time studying Kyusho/Poison Hand and there is no friggin' way that you can get an officer to learn anything worth a dang in the few hours of training they get with a baton unless you go for the McNasty stuff like the Achilles Tendon or bone targets that George mentioned earlier for the entirety of the course of instruction.

    I would say, if I was a police trainer and could get the department more interested in officer safety instead of PC horsehockey (yeah, I know), to go for the nice stuff like pain compliance for one hit and then swap for the nasty stuff. You've shown an honest attempt at a non-injurious attack and, well, they proved to be beyond your control with such methods. Combos like thigh/ankle and upper arm/forearm or wrist would be the bulk of the training and are natural as they require minimal transition of striking arc between blows and would instill the necessary reactions in officers to naturally go "Ok, the nice one didn't work. Let's do this one and see what happens."

  10. #24
    Member Array jabo2818's Avatar
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    From what I've researched, it is only illegal to carry these concealed here in Ga. Reading all the replies has made me wonder what the legal ramifications are for having to use one and NOT have any training. Anyone happen to know of any classes here in Ga?
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  11. #25
    Member Array hengst's Avatar
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    As stated they are great tools...I have personally only used an ASP...I would not buy a cheap knock off..Having also used a monadknock pr-24 I am sure they (MEB) are also top notch...and yes I have been trained in the proper use of both and would like to echo the folks that said to get training..it would suck to have someone that knows what they are doing violate you with your own baton after they kick your butt
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  12. #26
    Member Array ASHTXSNIPER's Avatar
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    The very best collapsible baton on the market. Way better than ASP or Monandock.

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    Proud houlder of a Texas Open Carry License.

  13. #27
    Member Array JKPinPDX's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by ASHTXSNIPER View Post
    The very best collapsible baton on the market. Way better than ASP or Monandock.

    Peacekeeper Products International - The Future of Impact Weapons :: Home
    Are these batons available for civilians to purchase? It looked like on their website that they only ship to "agencies". What if we wanted to purchase one of these and we are not a LEO?
    " If you keep aiming for NOTHING, you will hit it every time! "

  14. #28
    Member Array ASHTXSNIPER's Avatar
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    I forgot that they are a little hard to get. I will say that you wont bend or break them like a ASP and if you do they will replace them unlike ASP. I am LEO but I convinced them to send me one to my residence. Winchester and Wilmouth used to make similar baton. I am sure you could find someone to order you one. It might be worth sending them a email I am sure they are just trying to keep them out of the wrong hands but they may send them to someone with a CHL/CWL.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    And there lies the rub. On the thigh you can either hit the Sciatic Nerve (which sucks) and/or the gap where the Vastus Lateralis and Rectus Femoris roll into each other (which can suck for over a month if done right) or you're just wasting your time going for a Charlie Horse instead of giving them the good news. Add that most officers I see swing the baton like a baseball bat instead of using short chops with it like they're supposed to and targeting becomes even more difficult.

    I have spent same time studying Kyusho/Poison Hand and there is no friggin' way that you can get an officer to learn anything worth a dang in the few hours of training they get with a baton unless you go for the McNasty stuff like the Achilles Tendon or bone targets that George mentioned earlier for the entirety of the course of instruction.

    I would say, if I was a police trainer and could get the department more interested in officer safety instead of PC horsehockey (yeah, I know), to go for the nice stuff like pain compliance for one hit and then swap for the nasty stuff. You've shown an honest attempt at a non-injurious attack and, well, they proved to be beyond your control with such methods. Combos like thigh/ankle and upper arm/forearm or wrist would be the bulk of the training and are natural as they require minimal transition of striking arc between blows and would instill the necessary reactions in officers to naturally go "Ok, the nice one didn't work. Let's do this one and see what happens."
    yeah, we did 8 days of training in the academy on self-defense, baton training, etc, we're trained to hit the common peroneal, femoral, tibial in the legs and the median in the arms
    we do refresher training every 2 years, from what I hear we get more time on baton training than a lot of other places

    I know from our padded training batons how hitting the proper nerves in the legs does gain compliance, I was weak in the knees quite a few times unable to walk and the bruising left on our legs was hideous, I don't want to know what the real thing feels like

    in a true situation it will be more difficult to hit these exact targets and other things may be damaged
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  16. #30
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    yeah, we did 8 days of training in the academy on self-defense, baton training, etc, we're trained to hit the common peroneal, femoral, tibial in the legs and the median in the arms
    we do refresher training every 2 years, from what I hear we get more time on baton training than a lot of other places

    I know from our padded training batons how hitting the proper nerves in the legs does gain compliance, I was weak in the knees quite a few times unable to walk and the bruising left on our legs was hideous, I don't want to know what the real thing feels like

    in a true situation it will be more difficult to hit these exact targets and other things may be damaged
    Agreed. I have the (un)fortunate reality of pressure points working exactly as advertised on me. A buddy I used to train with would say, "Oww" when I'd be flopping around on the ground screeching like a little girl.

    I'm not saying to immediately go for crippling blows, I'm just saying that it's more than reasonable in a baton-authorized situation to go for the "soft" targets in an attempt for pain compliance hoping to randomly get a suspect like me and then to start going for the "You go down, NOW!" targets for when you get a suspect like my buddy.

    And yes, you do train quite a bit more than other officers that I have met or heard the official training schedules of.

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