SBS?

SBS?

This is a discussion on SBS? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I've got some questions for those with short barreled shotguns. I've been thinking about buying one, and after selling my Mossberg 590 to a friend, ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Katana's Avatar
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    SBS?

    I've got some questions for those with short barreled shotguns. I've been thinking about buying one, and after selling my Mossberg 590 to a friend, I need another shotgun to replace that hole in my case anyway.

    Brand? I'd assume the largest majority of those who own them have Remington 870's. Doesn't Remington make a factory short barreled version?

    If I go the Trust route(versus incorporating or going through the CLEO in my area), about how long should I expect to wait for approval?

    I'm unfamiliar with how the tax stamp works. Can I get approval from the BATFE and then later buy the shotgun I want, or do I have send them the serial number first for approval? Basically, are they approving me for possession or are they approving the shotgun being made into a short barreled version?

    Price? What can I expect to pay if I buy a factory made SBS? Are they similar in price to a regular 870 or would it be cheaper for me to buy a regular length barreled version and have a gunsmith chop the barrel and engrave the reciever for me?

    Capacity? If I go with a 14" barrel, the standard capacity is 4+1, is that correct?

    This isn't going to be something I buy anytime soon, I was thinking at least 6 months down the road. But I figured I'd just go ahead and start getting the info I'll need.

    Thanks!
    "Stand your ground, don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!" - John Parker April 19th, 1775 Lexington, MA

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  2. #2
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    First off, the best place to get a short barrel shotgun is at Scattergun Technologies. They are a division of Wilson Combat and you can find them here.

    They will also build one off of shotgun provided by the customer if you wish to save some money. They only build them from Remington shotguns. They will not build off another manufacturer such as Mossberg or Benelli.

    They will assist you with the paperwork for the BATFE. Also, when getting a Federal Tax Stamp, BATFE will have to have the serial number of the device along with all the details of the device, so the answer is NO, they will not issue an approval in advance of you seeking out your device.

    Also, once a device is registered, and you later decide to put a full length barrel on it, it is still a registered device. You can not sell it to anyone other than a class III holder even if it currently has a 16 inch barrel. Once it's registered as a short barreled shotgun, it remains a short barreled shotgun as far as the government is concerned.

    Also, you can not loan your weapon to another person. You can not leave it with your wife or anyone else to use for protection while you are at work or out of town. You can let other people shoot it, but you have to physically be present and under direct control of the weapon.

    If I understand correctly, the only way around that is if you have the weapon registered to a trust of some sort and you can have other people listed as members of the trust. Someone else will have to provide more details about that.

    Also, you can "will" the weapon to someone upon your death as long as they are legally able to possess such an item. And I'm sure the BATFE will have to know about it and know of the disposition but to my knowledge they do not have to pay an additional tax.

    This is just my basic understanding of the process. I have considered a Short Barrel Shotty myself, but have not acquired one yet. I'm sure others will provide more specific information regarding your questions.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    If you're going to buy it as a SBS, not make one on a Form 1, your dealer should be able to help you through the process. The local dealer even has a notary available to set up a trust for a small fee. There are abundant examples of trusts online too. My employer has a free legal service as a benefit and one of the free forms they provide is a Revocable Living Trust. I have heard rumors the The Man is cracking down on NFA trusts somehow, but most seem to be internet rumors. If the trust is valid, you should be fine. My lawyer researched mine for me and just suggested a separate trust for each NFA item so I'll pass that advice along to you.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Mossberg 590A1 'Compact' Short Barrel Shotgun
    http://www.mossberg.com/press/pdf/58.pdf

    O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc. - Firearms, Shotguns, Rifles, Accessories, and Precision Machining
    Note: Click forward six times to item # 51520

    Mossberg Law Enforcement Shotguns

    Model# -- Stock -- Barrel -- Sight -- Choke -- Capacity

    590A1 COMPACT - Class 3 BATF Rules Apply - 12 Gauge, Heavy Wall Barrel, Clean-out Tube, Metal Trigger Guard, Metal Safety

    51681-5 -- Synthetic -- 14" -- Bead -- CYL -- 6

    51682-2 -- Synthetic -- 14" -- Bead -- MOD -- 6

    51686-0 -- Speedfeed -- 14" -- Bead -- CYL -- 6

    51689-1 -- Speedfeed -- 14" -- GRS -- CYL -- 6

    51683-9 -- Pistol Grip -- 14" -- Bead -- CYL -- 6

    52689-0 -- Speedfeed -- 14" -- GRS (tritium) -- MOD -- 6

    As well AimPro Tactical sells modified custom Mossberg same as Wilson does against Remington product only they are also Mossberg's lic. repair center too; AIMPRO Tactical

    Also unlike the crazy high cost for a Remington barrel, Mossberg sells a an 18.5" 6 rd. magazine type 590 A1 replacement barrel at just $75.18 total (!) including $9 shipping. Part # 3907.
    By that you can have two guns in one such as one barrel for turkeys and a second for deer.

    You cannot purchase a factory Remington SBS.
    Remington LE will NOT sell units to non-agency buyers, not even if you have credentials as for personal ownership.
    Trust me I had tried every angle with them direct. Your only option is to either buy a used one or go with a Wilson item as with a non-factory cut down and re-finished barrel.
    Mossberg on the other hand can be had via LE dealers direct as across the nation. I had little problem to that end and they are OEM factory SBS, which in my state current (MA) is by statute the only allowable means to possess an SBS as otherwise altered and "sawed-off shotguns" are expressly disallowed in the statute by name.

    My paperwork has been processing nearly 8 months now (!).
    I'd paid for my unit in Oct 2008. No, I am not kidding. It's been sitting at my FFL since third week of Dec. 2008.
    It took me much of 2009 to fight with my state (atty. general) and the local PD to get my forms signed off on. A long long story, but I won...And didn't need an attorney as they had demanded I secure.
    Last week the BATFE sent my FFL a request for a copy of my state firearms permit/license and for me to sign a document stating I am a US citizen. Info already covered in their forms but whatever.
    I expect to wait another 60 days before I finally get my prize, just in time for spring turkey season..

    - Janq has a 52689-0

    P.S. - I will very likely have the standard barrel reamed (cylinder) to support internal chokes which I plan to have done in Remington thread as that is darn near universal.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the source Janq, I always thought the Mossberg was made to have a 14" barrel. I just couldn't find a source!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    My pleasure to assist Bark'N.

    If at all possible I always try to provide a source citation/link to my info posts.
    I know I prefer as much to confirm assertions of facts and I figure other folk would like to bookmark them too as I do for future reference.

    Personally I prefer the Mossberg only because of the tang safety.
    Otherwise at the end of the day really minus all the Ford vs. Chevy type talk, the 500 & 590/590-A1 are no better or worse than the 870 & 870 Police. Dead heat race.
    Aside from the safety location the only other major difference is that the Remington is heavier due to it's steel receiver and the Mossberg is made of thick aluminum. While the Remington comes with a regular wall thickness barrel to that Mossberg 500 being regular and the 590 being heavy wall resulting in a heavier gun with a more forward balance.

    Either one will and do last forever with a minimum of operator care.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Katana's Avatar
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    Thanks so much for the info gentlemen. Yeah, I was looking at some 590A1's at Impact Guns Online Store, and that would actually make more sense for me anyway, as I spent the last few years practicing and training with the 590. Would not be a good thing in a SHTF scenario for me to spend 1 or 1 1/2 seconds trying to release the safety only to realize it's now on the triggerguard.

    I'll definitely check the link you posted Janq.
    "Stand your ground, don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!" - John Parker April 19th, 1775 Lexington, MA

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    As far as the part about getting the BATFE signoff, I'd go the trust route. It took me about 20 minutes total to set up my trust(quicken willmaker), another 15 minutes or so to get it notarized and then took about 2.5weeks from time of submission to get ok and stamp back from the BATFE when I last purchased an NFA item.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Packin,

    What time frame (month & year) was it that you submitted your paperwork?

    Prior to the Obama election time frames were 'normal' and relatively quick.
    After he won the general election even locating Form 4 paperwork was an impossibility as the standard forms were all out. My own FFL had none and was directed to print from an internet form. I just happened to have two sets on hand from when I had requested them direct from the BATFE back in '08 knowing I was going to be buying an SBS.

    The numbers of Form 4 and Form 1 requests have been at record numbers per the agency as through all of 2009 and continues into 2010.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #10
    Member Array tennvol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    As far as the part about getting the BATFE signoff, I'd go the trust route. It took me about 20 minutes total to set up my trust(quicken willmaker), another 15 minutes or so to get it notarized and then took about 2.5weeks from time of submission to get ok and stamp back from the BATFE when I last purchased an NFA item.
    I know lots of people have used Willmaker for their RLTs but my wife advised me under no circumstances to use a "out of the box" solution, especially for anything legal. There can be tax implications of some sort using the wrong kind of trust. I take her word for it as she is a practicing lawyer. She said for anything will related to ALWAYS use a lawyer with experience in that area. This wasn't a big deal for me as my CLEO signs off.

    Like I said lots of people use Willmaker and don't have problems, but I trust (no pun intended) my wife on this. She's by no way anti-gun so it wasn't like she didn't want me to send in my paperwork for my NFA items. She did cringe when I sent in 3 Form 4s and 2 Form 1s at the same time :p

  11. #11
    New Member Array gimpyrobb's Avatar
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    I have to claim ignorance on this one. Why do you want to go through so much hassle for a SBS? Is the 4 or 5 inch difference SO much better for "spread pattern" or is it to navigate the home easier? I have had shotguns for a while and never thought to go shorter than a stock 18.5 barrel. Could you offer some insight?

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Gimpy,

    Speaking for myself my primary reason was for having maximal ease of use in navigating my home hallways.
    Also defending using a long gun with a long barrel 18" and longer more greatly exposes you to having the gun wrestled away at the barrel. Real world among threads posted her alone this has happened several times.

    Secondarily I planned to use my gun double duty toward turkey hunting where a short barrel is beneficial for multiple reasons including navigating into the field.

    But the biggest reason of all? Principal.

    I wanted to own one because the .GOV (federal) deems them to be restricted.
    I also would like to own an SBR, which I have plan for next.

    But even then I would have quite possibly not pressed it...IF when I had contacted my local town PD the "firearms expert" and issuing agent that I had been directed to had not lied (!) to me and been rude in doing so as well treating me as though I were a criminal.
    I merely called to ask to setup an appt. with the chief to get my forms signed and have my paperwork processed (fingerprints et. al). I was sent by the operator to this dude.
    Right out the gate he tells me as much is unlawful in MA. False. I reply stating that is not the case as in _specific_ to an OEM manufactured SBS, which is not by statute determination a "sawed off shotgun". He not only disagreed but then got indignant with me. I am being serious here and am not exaggerating.
    He then went on to ask same question as you have; Why would I "need" a "sawed off shotgun" anyway?! I corrected him saying 'short barrel shotgun' and stated what I have above....And read him the statute verbatim as from the states own website.
    He came back at me with only criminals want to own "saed off shotguns" and tht he has turned away others asking same and supported his assertion by stating that he has friends that had Scattergun Technologies shotguns as in the past but when the state changed it's laws in '94 they had to get rid of them (!) or else be unlawful...And some other baloney.

    So by that I got mad. And on singularly principal alone I told him thank you for the time and advisory, then hung up the phone.
    My next immediate action was to Google the phone number for the states Attorney General office as to my region....And I made the second of what began a very long and overly difficult mission requiring a dozen or so phone calls and several e-mails as well as letters....and being told multiple times by ultimately several other LEOs and the chief of police from an adjacent major city the same assumptive but incorrect position. Before I was vindicated and found to be correct in all manner including basic ability to _read_ as with comprehension.

    The MA statute
    “Sawed-off shotgun”, any weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

    Source - M.G.L. - Chapter 140, Section 121
    At the end of the day I got my paperwork signed, that original LEO I spoke with is now super nice/cordial to me and has been since as related to other activitys and interactions I've had with him recently...and he now has my name memorized too as based on since then to current results.

    I refused to accept being told my rights as a lawful citizen were to be effectively suspended and further to be bullied out of them as well for reason of another persons ignorance and expressed concern as well as desire to understand "why" I would want to exercise my rights.
    His job nor right as a LEO is not to question me on why or why not I might wish to exercise a right, any right. Nor am I as a lawful citizen required to express same and meet his justification. That just out right pissed me off. And generally I'm known to be a laid back person not overly quick to be riled. But at the same time I never have taken well to being bullied and it was clear to me that day that was his intent, and had been same toward who knows how many others through the past 16 yrs. (since 1994!) as before me. But now as a result of me from here and after in my town atleast nobody else will suffer same. Which cost me personally a whole lot of time plus a $200 tax stamp and roughly $50 more in additional required hard costs including postage fees.

    That's been my own story, in a nutshell.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Packin,

    What time frame (month & year) was it that you submitted your paperwork?

    Prior to the Obama election time frames were 'normal' and relatively quick.
    After he won the general election even locating Form 4 paperwork was an impossibility as the standard forms were all out. My own FFL had none and was directed to print from an internet form. I just happened to have two sets on hand from when I had requested them direct from the BATFE back in '08 knowing I was going to be buying an SBS.

    The numbers of Form 4 and Form 1 requests have been at record numbers per the agency as through all of 2009 and continues into 2010.

    - Janq
    Whoops...didn't think about that. Good point. It was well prior to the election.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Packin,

    I have just recently been looking into the NFA Trust approach, as I want to buy a suppressor or three... I am reasonably comfortable with the actual language of a trust, but having never before delved into the NFA world, I don't understand the order of things.

    So, in the grand scheme of things, for getting your very first NFA Trust item, what order did you do these things in:

    1. Establish the trust.
    2. Order the NFA item.
    3. Pay for the NFA item.
    4. Do the ATF paperwork.
    5. Pay the ATF transfer tax.
    6. Add the NFA item to Schedule A of the trust.
    7. Take physical possession of the NFA item.

    I'd be really happy to see how someone did all this. (Might even deserve its own thread in the reference section...)

    Thanks!

    (Apologies to Katana for the thread hijack. )
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

    SIG: P220R SS Elite SAO, P220R SAO, P220R Carry, P226R Navy, P226, P239/.40S&W, P2022/.40S&W; GSR 5", P6.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katana View Post
    I've got some questions for those with short barreled shotguns. I've been thinking about buying one, and after selling my Mossberg 590 to a friend, I need another shotgun to replace that hole in my case anyway.
    Mossberg makes a short-barreled option. The 590-A1, for example.

    So does Remington, FN, Benelli and the other major shotgun makers. They need to, if they're to offer products ot the police market.

    Check any police-returns type gun shop, or any generic Class-III shop. For example, Clyde Armory, or perhaps Arizona Gunrunners.


    Doesn't Remington make a factory short barreled version?
    Sure. They just don't advertise it to the civilian market. Uncertain if they sell directly, though I don't see why they wouldn't.

    I've got a Remington 870 Police, a factory unit that was apparently part of a 2001 production group that had been made up for the U.S. Secret Service. It's got a factory 14" heavy barrel, +1 extension on the mag tube, ghost ring tritium sights. With the right ammo, the mag holds 5 rounds; otherwise, 4. The 3" magnum rounds are, most certainly, the sort where only 4rds fit in the mag tube.


    If I go the Trust route(versus incorporating or going through the CLEO in my area), about how long should I expect to wait for approval?
    Uncertain about the "Trust" method of acquisition. Going the traditional route, mine took about 4mos, from the point when my FFL got the gun and assisted me with filling out the forms, to when my sheriff signed-off on the approval and I picked up the gun.


    I'm unfamiliar with how the tax stamp works. Can I get approval from the BATFE and then later buy the shotgun I want, or do I have send them the serial number first for approval?
    The procedure I followed was this, more or less: After purchase from my seller, the gun was then shipped to my FFL shop. My shop assisted with putting together the appropriate form(s), which were submitted to the BATFE along with thumb print cards. After around 4mos, the approval came back. I got my county sheriff's nod, then picked up my gun at my FFL shop.

    The cost depends on the classification. I'm not that informed on the distinctions. Others will know about this part (ie, justification for the $200 vs $5 "stamp").
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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