Holographic Sights - Page 3

Holographic Sights

This is a discussion on Holographic Sights within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Janq... You're the Man. Exactly the photo I was looking for. I can't remember if I saw it online or in one of the shooting ...

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Thread: Holographic Sights

  1. #31
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    Janq... You're the Man. Exactly the photo I was looking for.

    I can't remember if I saw it online or in one of the shooting magazines.

    Thanks buddy!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."


  2. #32
    Member Array Passin' Through's Avatar
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    Janq is the man. He is very informative and is willing to share his knowledge. I appreciate not only his help but all on here who strive to help many to glean from their knowledge.
    For a man interested only in passin' through, he suddenly found himself entangled in a deadly struggle….

    ad utrumque paratus

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    For field of view nothing beats a 'reflex' type red dot (as different than a tube type).

    When looking through the tunnel of an EOTech (or civilian Bushnell) the view is a large rectangle with thick and obstructed black borders.
    See the post above by Los.

    Where as the following is the view you get from a reflex type red dot which is very clear and very near to unobstructed view...


    Image source - Quick Shot™ 1×22×33 ~ Mueller Optics

    With an EOTech you look through a tube it's just shaped like a rectangle and is short in length, akin to a toilet paper roll cut in half and squared out.
    Where as with a reflex type red dot you look down range at your target and pickup the reticle whatever it may be programmed/set to look like.

    Of the two IMHO the reflex is easiest and thus fastest while providing the most full and crisp a _full_ view. You see not just your target but everything else in the periphery too.
    For HD and hunting I'd honestly advocate for a reflex red dot ahead of a tube type or EOTech. Same for LEO use where they will most commonly be engaging threats at 50yds. and far less ranges.

    But if I were military and by that expected to with regularity engage targets from 25 feet out to as far as 100 yds. _AND_ my weapon system would be exposed to inordinate & constant rough service rather than stowed in a cruiser (LEO) or as cased/cabineted (civilian)...then well the obvious choice for tht specific application niche is either EOTech or something along the line$ of the highly ruggedized reflex sights by Insight industries MRDS or the Trijicon RMR.

    mRDS - Mini Red Dot Sight | Insight Tech Gear
    Trijicon, Inc. : Brilliant Aiming Solutions

    Again though there is no good reason to feel a civilian or even many if not most LEO buyers absolutely need the most ruggedized of rugged gear ala GIJOE & COBRA.
    Especially so when departmental budgets in a real way do not support as much and folks own home budgets cannot sustain such a hit without involving the family eating oatmeal for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

    One has to step back for a moment and be real with one self about what the tool is, how it will be used for real (not in your super hero imagination) as well as what environment this purchase would be expected to survive among. After that you then pick your price point like buying a lawnmower or a work truck.

    Good, Better, Best...and Money is No Object

    Me thinks the internets and OMG my buddy has that social pressures have driven a whole Chinese boat load of suckas to buy into buying a large dollar amount of toys n' stuff that back to reality in the real world they have little to even no real need for.

    A prime example includes this bit of marketing genius...


    Image source - Shotgun Accessories for Tactical Shotguns

    This lady is shown with an ACOG mounted on a SHOTGUN!!
    A gun that fires _shot_...As applied to home defense...On a gun that is no less CYLINDER bore!
    That is asinine. But look who is using the image and how...$uckas 'R Us.

    Folk gotta step back and think it through for a minute and ask themself:
    1) Exactly why do I need this?
    2) Will I actually use this to even 50% of it's full potential and if not why?
    3) What other options are available to get to the same net result?

    Remember folks we are still living in an economic collapse.
    It ain't 2001 where if you needed some extra scratch you just dial 1-800-REF-INOW, provide your SS# and get a check mailed to you within 30 days for $XX,000 no questions asked.

    People act like they gonna be beamed up by Scotty and placed away team style right into the heart of Tora Bora at any given moment with no notice. Come on folks, get real....And don't fall victim to the vapors.

    - Janq

    P.S. - If I were absolutely low on coin I would have no problem at all with running a break action O/U with 19" barrels or a lever action .30-30 or a Mini-14 or heck just a regular Remy 870 Express (not the uber Police Magnum model either) or a Mossy 500 from WalMart/Dicks.
    At the end of the day Deebo will not laugh at you because you've run upon him in the hall (20' away!) to defend your castle and you didn't happen to have an ACOG or because your red dot is a Chinese knock-off that won't last but ~270 hrs. on a battery if it's left stored on rather than off.
    There is a point where stuff just gets stupid and one loses sight of the initial primary intent.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Ditto on field of view (wider) and target acquisition (quicker) with the Halo.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  5. #35
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    I have always used the EOTech mounted as far forward as my rail system (that is, a rail guaranteed to maintain a zero) will allow, and shot with both eyes open. The "depth" of the EOTech is much less than that of the Aimpoint and, while both allow (indeed, call for) both eyes open shooting, it's my experience that the EOTech is faster and easier to acquire when using this technique. That said, one neat thing that can be done with the Aimpoint is to use the both-eyes-open technique with the cover ON, which prevents you from focusing on looking "through" the tube, but still gives you a nice red dot superimposed over the target.

    I am still a fan of the EOTech - it works for me, and works very well. But there are other options that work just as well for other people...many stores have demo models of these products, so check out as much as you can!

    As for the ACOG on the shotty...they do make low magnification ACOGs, but unless it was a 0 magnification it seems like an...unusual...choice.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    One more time: If used correctly (both eyes open) there is ZERO obstruction of your FOV with any red dot/holo sight.

    This CANNOT be conveyed by a photo.

  7. #37
    los
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    ....As for the ACOG on the shotty...they do make low magnification ACOGs, but unless it was a 0 magnification it seems like an...unusual...choice.
    The ACOG would only work best if mounted on a slugged shotgun, which will group adequately within 100 yards.

    BTW, the subject shotgun has a shell holder on it's Stock that appears to be holding slug shells.

    Still, way too much optic [$$] for the application.
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    As for the ACOG on the shotty...they do make low magnification ACOGs, but unless it was a 0 magnification it seems like an...unusual...choice.
    Even if it was zero magnification (which was my assumption) it still makes no sense considering a shotgun is a point and click interface, not a solid projectile aimed tool.
    As well at HD distances as is implied in the pic all one needs is index the barrel on to the target and toggle the trigger.
    Most average homes are not open floor plans with 100 yds. distance across them.
    Shooting with no sights at all and the shotgun low at the hip most anyone should be able to hit a man sized target at 50 yds. I was doing just that last Friday and using a 14" barrel shotgun at that running drills with #8 clay loads.

    All kinds of not necessary.
    Looks cool but for the dollar a case of ammo and a years range membership would go much farther for real world application function.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    One more time: If used correctly (both eyes open) there is ZERO obstruction of your FOV with any red dot/holo sight.

    This CANNOT be conveyed by a photo.
    If you mount the EOTech forward on the rail as in a scout type configuration...Which is not what most folks do.
    Instead they mount it rearward and look through it with both eyes open as though it were a pseudo scope.


    Image source - Bravo Company USA, Inc. AR-15, M16, M4 Tactical Gear, Parts, Accessories.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...le_EOTech.JPEG

    Here is how the unit would need to be mounted (to an extreme) to result in both eyes open view as you describe.


    News EOTech Demonstration
    YouTube - EoTech Demonstration

    EOTech Product Video
    YouTube - EOTech Product Video

    On my Sig Sauer 556 carbine I have the EOTech mounted forward just over the chamber & charging handle to support exactly the optical phenomenon you have been describing. But still even as that the reflex when compared heads up one to the other provides a greater field of unobstructed overall view inclusive of visual phenomenon being compared by the same eyes.

    But honest from here on take notice of every time you see other display their EOTech mounted long guns (rifle or shotgun) and see how few have them mounted optimally as forward. Most mount them like it's a scope, which of course it is not.

    Like OPFOR I too am still a fan of the EOTech and am not knocking it as being junk or useless.
    Just to the FOV item in specific the reflex does win and by a noticeable and good sized margin...When compared directly by the same operators eyes as mounted in the same location be it forward/far or rearward/near.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #40
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    I for one am not a believer in the "just stab it in the general direction and the shotty will magically de-spackulate everything in its path." I work with 14" bbl shotguns all the time, and beyond about 15m it's hard to keep a "killing" shot on paper with 00 buck. With slugs, I've had to off-set aim two target stands at 50m, and 4 target stands at 75m. Not exactly "aim anywhere close and you'll get 'em..."

    I've also shot IPSC with those same 14"ers, and couldn't knock down 8" plates at 25m with #4 buck. Yeah, some pellets hit (I could hear them), but they didn't have enough "oomph" to tip over the 2lb(?) hunk of metal.

    All things considered, I've come to believe this: Shotguns require aiming. Shotguns require aiming. Shotguns require aiming. Shotguns are not magic death rays. And they require aiming.

    P.S. I mount my EOTech forward.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Janq- your post doesn't match up with my experience with EOtechs or the aimpoint I have on the rifle in front of me right now.

  12. #42
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    If you mount the EOTech forward on the rail as in a scout type configuration...Which is not what most folks do.
    Instead they mount it rearward and look through it with both eyes open as though it were a pseudo scope.
    Looking through the sight with both eyes may be how some people try to use their sights, but it certainly is not how I use mine, and I'm reasonably sure it's not how they are intended to be used.

    When using a red-dot or holo sight, I find it's better not to follow the old adage about focusing on your front sight and blurring your target. You focus on the target, letting your sighting eye look through and past the sight, while your non-sighting eye looks around and past it. The result is a full field of view with a fuzzy slightly dark ring superimposed on it and the reticle in the middle.

    Think of it like a big ghost ring peep sight. Shooting an AR with irons through the rear ghost ring is exactly the same - both eyes open, looking through and past the rear sight to focus on the front sight. The only difference with the red-dot is that there is no front sight, so you focus on the target instead.

    I've never been a fan of mounting optics on the handguard, for exactly this reason. It makes it much more difficult to look through and past the sight rather than just through it like a tube.

    I do agree that the small reflex sights have great fields of view no matter how you look through them. But with a little practice, you can get the same effect with any 1x sight.
    "A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
    Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    OPFOR,

    I said nothing about stabbing and magic (?) death rays.

    What I did say though was; "...all one needs is index the barrel on to the target and toggle the trigger."

    A huge difference there.

    As to my gun it's fixed modified bore, not cylinder, which is why I could reach out as far with good repeatability.
    I have though done exact same running a cylinder bore 18.5" conventional shotgun no problem, out to 75 ft. (back stop of the indoor range at the Smith & Wesson Academy) under combat shotgun training conditions..Using #4, 00 buck and BB target loads.
    It's not difficult to learn nor do.
    Not that one would have need to use a shotgun at that far out for HD. We're talking real world 20 to 30 feet, at best.

    There is no stabbing or magic involved.

    Shotguns involve pointing, of the barrel(s) at the target.
    Rifles are aimed...Shotguns firing shot are pointed in the field and across hallways.

    Just ask Tom Knapp...
    'Benelli Shotgun Amazing Shots'
    YouTube - Benelli Shotgun Amazing Shots

    Notable exception being turkey hunters running full and extra full chokes.

    I mount my EOTech forward too, as in away from my face toward the barrel.

    - Janq

    Shotguns firing solid projectiles (slug) at distance do though require precise 'aiming', be the barrel smooth or rifled regardless of choke.

    Shotgun Slugs at 200 Yards (HD)
    YouTube - Shotgun Slugs at 200 Yards (HD)

    Helmet Cam: 100 Yard Shotgun Slugs with Mossberg 590
    YouTube - Helmet Cam: 100 Yard Shotgun Slugs with Mossberg 590

    My next trip out to the range I'll bring my camera and tape some short of me doing same and will be sure to note the gun(s) and ammo used on camera for positive proof.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob The Great View Post
    Looking through the sight with both eyes may be how some people try to use their sights, but it certainly is not how I use mine, and I'm reasonably sure it's not how they are intended to be used...
    I'd stated; "Instead they mount it rearward and look through it with both eyes open as though it were a pseudo scope."

    Of course you generally do not look through a scope with both eyes open.
    Although there are today as of the latest tech some scopes including non-reflex tube type red dot 'scopes' that do by design support this (see my pics posted prior) as well as true scopes that are by design variable and intended to support both eyes open in one phase of use and then transition to one eye closed when under increased magnification.

    A prime example of this is the Trijicon TR24 1-4x scope and how it is used, real world.

    AccuPoint 1-4x24 30mm Riflescope with BAC
    Trijicon, Inc. : Brilliant Aiming Solutions

    This is just one example but there are several others on the current and latest gen scope market that are same in design and intended function as from Leupold, Nikon and others.

    - Janq

    P.S. - I _love_ ghost ring type sights/aiming systems.
    My shotgun came with that as OEM having a rifled type ramp front sight and a Williams wide aperture peep rear.
    I will very likely install an LPA pic/1913 rail mount wide aperture peep as redundant backup against the reflex I have installed current as for use when firing solid projectile rifled slug (!) during deer season.

    http://www.precisionsights.com/Produ...duct_page.html
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #45
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    No offense intended, Janq, I wasn't as much referring to you as to the general idea that a shotgun doesn't need to be aimed. The issue, I think, is not so much the weapon system as it is the distances... At across the room distances, you can "index" a rifle just as easily as you can a shotgun. The very minimal spread that you will see from a "normal" HD shotgun (18"+bbl) makes no practical difference vis a vis a similar rifle. Those people who think a shotgun will actually "clear" a hallway are woefully misinformed at best, and dangerous (in that they aren't aiming their weapons properly, if at all) at worst.

    We're getting a bit OT here, but suffice it to say that I think a 0x optic on an HD shotgun is a good idea, as they are fast, simple, and are better than "pointing" as some folks think is all that's necessary (and it may in fact be all that's necessary, but it's simply because the target is so close, not because the shotgun is going to kill everything in a 20' cone in front of the muzzle...)
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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