My new Defense rifle - Page 3

My new Defense rifle

This is a discussion on My new Defense rifle within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf...

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Thread: My new Defense rifle

  1. #31
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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  2. #32
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    Good Link
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
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    Hereís a decent article on shotgun wound ballistics from the Western Journal of Medicine. Of special note is page 155 which deals with mortality rates with birdshot based on distance:

    Shotgun ballistics and shotgun injuries.

    The most lethal are what they call a Type III wounds (3 to 7 yards) of which are 15-20% lethal. Of all 3 types of wounds 80-95% of the deaths that occurred were Type III and hemorrhaging was the primary cause of death.

    In this study itís important to note that the average survival period for those patients that did die (15-20%) was 2.3 hours.

    Chuck
    homo homini lupus est

  4. #34
    New Member Array guitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fknipfer1 View Post
    Bought me a used Marlin Camp 9 9mm with 15rd magazines. I added a Choate folding stock that is 35" long extended and 26.5 inches folded. Right size for a defense rifle. 9mm a lot less liable to penetrate walls and keep going. At in house distances its perfect. I hope the attached pictures come thru. Going to put me a red dot on it soon.

    fknipfer1
    I think it looks awesome. I you live in a sub-urban/urban place then I would use fragmenting ammo. And align furniture eg. you think bad guys will be coming from the left move your sofa over there.
    I also think 9mm ammo is less liable to penetrate.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guitar View Post
    I think it looks awesome. I you live in a sub-urban/urban place then I would use fragmenting ammo. And align furniture eg. you think bad guys will be coming from the left move your sofa over there.
    I also think 9mm ammo is less liable to penetrate.
    9mm will penetrate more walls than .223/5.56...

    And "fragmenting"(aka frangible) rounds are horrible choices for defense.

    If a round will penetrate deep enough into a bad guy to do damage that will stop them, it will penetrate walls...pretty simple.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  6. #36
    Member Array Alchemist77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Hold it right there: The #1 factor in ability to stop an individual is penetration. Kinetic energy is meaningless. If not, the shotgun would do just as much damage to the shooter as the shootee.
    ......
    Sort of.... conservation of momentum (not energy) means the same momentum is imparted to the shooter (and off gases etc.) as to the projectile, as you imply. However, "damage" is a relative term. The projectile penetrates through the target while the shotgun doesn't penetrate through the shooter's shoulder because of surface area and impact impulse. (Visualize striking a tree with a bat and with an axe using the same mass and velocity.... the axe penetrates because the force is spread over a much smaller area at impact)

    If we are talking about simple penetration, that is a little misleading as well as far as "stopping power". Just making a hole isn't enough to stop quickly, unless the bullet hits the central nervous system, breaks a critical structure (pelvis, vertebrae), or causes major organ/vascular damage so that bleed-out occurs very quickly. If it's all about penetration, we might as well go back to cheap FMJ carry rounds....

    Regarding the AR-15.... hasn't there been significant debate about the 5.56 round (at least in FMJ) being a poor man-stopper in combat? Same thing for the 9mm (at least in FMJ)? If the 5.56 is such a poor stopper, then why has there been such a resurgence of interest in civilian ownership? cheap ammo? cool factor? Gun-grab fear? probably some of those.... Maybe the bad-guy stops faster if you tell him that you just shot him with a $2900 tricked-out tacti-cool carbine.....?

    Maybe we should all give up our shotguns and puny handguns and get .50BMG carbines for in-home defense......after all, there's got to be at least 0.05% of the bad-guy population that could invade your house with hard body-armor, ballistic helmets and shield.... heavy bird shot in that 12ga would just wipe the dust off the shield.

    I remember reading statistics on mortality rate of handgun shooting victims, and remember being very suprised at the relatively high percentage who survive.... with some examples including .357MAG to chest cavity. Nothing is guaranteed to stop instantly....

    I still hold that a shotgun with heavy birdshot will very quickly take the fight out of most assailants at in-house distances... and if it doesn't, the buckshot later in the magazine will.... with less initial overpenetration risk than handgun or rifle, and less hearing damage and much lower cost than the 5.56 carbines.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
    I think that, considering our city and suburban scenarios, accuracy at 100 yards could and would be more than good enough for most rifles, with enough stopping power and not much bullet drop. I am still trying to decide which rifle, with a scope, to buy; never having owned such a weapon before. I figure that everybody ought to have at least one such long-range scoped rifle. I keep reading and scanning and trying to decide, taking my time. Oh, the scope ought not to be too fragile or sensitive, just powerful enough to get on target, and do good if you have to take it into the woods.
    A good AR carbine in 5.56 with an Aimpoint will fill that need. Check the AR thread running for help in selecting one that's reliable. Don't overlook used... a lot of black rifles were sold since the November '08 elections which are being liquidated in search of cash.
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  8. #38
    Member Array SteveinNEPA's Avatar
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    BIRD SHOT is for BIRDS which is why cops, swat and military units load shotguns with BUCK SHOT OR SLUGS.

    "I also think 9mm ammo is less liable to penetrate."

    9mm will go through a wall and can kill someone on the other side - It will go through a couch through a sheetrock wall,through the insulation, through the OSB (wooden sheathing) and the vinyl siding outside and KEEP GOING. I know this for FACT because of my father. He had to fire at someone in OUR HOUSE. 9mm remington GOLDEN SABRE HOLLOW POINTS. Went through the couch into the wall OUT the wall and into an oak tree OUTSIDE total distance from couch front to exterior was over 15 inches... The couch was about about 15 - 20 feet away. I get tired of hearing 9mm wont penatrate as much because it will.
    BETTER TO BE TRIED BY 12 THAN CARRIED BY 6
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  9. #39
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alchemist77 View Post
    Sort of.... conservation of momentum (not energy) means the same momentum is imparted to the shooter (and off gases etc.) as to the projectile, as you imply. However, "damage" is a relative term. The projectile penetrates through the target while the shotgun doesn't penetrate through the shooter's shoulder because of surface area and impact impulse. (Visualize striking a tree with a bat and with an axe using the same mass and velocity.... the axe penetrates because the force is spread over a much smaller area at impact)
    I'm with you so far, but this doesn't jibe with the astounding number of people who are shot, but don't even realize it.

    If we are talking about simple penetration, that is a little misleading as well as far as "stopping power". Just making a hole isn't enough to stop quickly, unless the bullet hits the central nervous system, breaks a critical structure (pelvis, vertebrae), or causes major organ/vascular damage so that bleed-out occurs very quickly. If it's all about penetration, we might as well go back to cheap FMJ carry rounds....
    Still, penetration determines % chance of hitting something that "stops" the bad guy. Whether it be CNS or a critical organ. Your % chance of hitting something important using birdshot are small.

    Regarding the AR-15.... hasn't there been significant debate about the 5.56 round (at least in FMJ) being a poor man-stopper in combat?
    At ranges over 300m, the 5.56 round is roughly equivalent to a .22 mag at the muzzle. At ranges under 200m, the 5.56 round causes horrific wounds because the round destabilizes and often fragments AFTER penetrating significantly. The key here is velocity, which rifles have and pistols and shotguns do not.

    Same thing for the 9mm (at least in FMJ)? If the 5.56 is such a poor stopper....
    Everything after this doesn't rate a reply. Is it too much to ask to stay on task without going into superfluous b.s. in these posts? A top of the line carbine can be had for $800, with everything you need for SD/HD. A functional AR carbine can be had for around $500.

    I still hold that a shotgun with heavy birdshot will very quickly take the fight out of most assailants at in-house distances... and if it doesn't, the buckshot later in the magazine will.... with less initial overpenetration risk than handgun or rifle, and less hearing damage and much lower cost than the 5.56 carbines.
    Food poisoning will also take the fight out of your assailant, so why not offer him some tainted hot dogs? The problem with birdshot, and the "sound of an 12 gauge racking" crowd, is that those two things will ONLY "take the fight out of" the less determined attacker. Who are the ones you really didn't need to worry about in the first place.

    Buckshot #2 and bigger will penetrate very similarly to 5.56, but if you miss, you have several more loose projectiles to account for.

    If you are concerned with hearing loss in SD/HD situations, I have nothing for you. You might as well go to no-lead rounds for in-home use, too, since exposure to lead might have long term risks as well.

  10. #40
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post

    In this study itís important to note that the average survival period for those patients that did die (15-20%) was 2.3 hours.

    Chuck
    Ouch.

    /thread/

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    The most lethal are what they call a Type III wounds (3 to 7 yards) of which are 15-20% lethal. Of all 3 types of wounds 80-95% of the deaths that occurred were Type III and hemorrhaging was the primary cause of death.

    In this study itís important to note that the average survival period for those patients that did die (15-20%) was 2.3 hours.

    Chuck
    3-7 yards. Sounds like a typical HD situation.

    Couldn't quite determine your position as to the HD effectiveness of birdshot, but my assertion is that for those 2.3 hours, the person was, in all likelyhood, incapacitated from the moment of impact in the vast majority of cases, thus making the effects of the birdshot effective for HD.

    I still feel birdshot, at close, in-house ranges, will take the fight out of just about anyone.

    I'd be interested in a comparison of this data against the mortality rate and survival period for those shot by handguns of any or all calibers. Would the rate be more or less with handguns? The survival period shorter or longer?
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  12. #42
    Senior Member Array boatail's Avatar
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    How about a good ol' .30 carbine with a paratrooper stock,30 rd. mag..would that fill the bill?
    Light travels faster than sound...thats why some people appear bright before they speak

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatail View Post
    How about a good ol' .30 carbine with a paratrooper stock,30 rd. mag..would that fill the bill?
    I use a good ole .30 carbine with a standard stock. Actually I use two we have his and hers M1 Carbines, and Ms. Pgrass is quite a good shot with hers
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Right and I imagine at close ranges that a birdshot is not going to have many penetration issues. As I pointed out before the story of our illustrious former vice president and his accident, penetration does not seem to be an issue. Also as far as the police and military use it argument, they go into things and find themselves in situations I would avoid like the plague. So I think comparing their needs and mine are foolish.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexHassin View Post
    Right and I imagine at close ranges that a birdshot is not going to have many penetration issues. As I pointed out before the story of our illustrious former vice president and his accident, penetration does not seem to be an issue. Also as far as the police and military use it argument, they go into things and find themselves in situations I would avoid like the plague. So I think comparing their needs and mine are foolish.
    As to the Cheney incidnet--you may do well to keep in mind that there is a BIG difference between getting shooting someone by accident while hunting, and trying to stop a determined attacker.

    Look--the only things that are 100% reliable at stopping someone is a CNS hit (hard to count on) and exsanguination--bleed out. In order to hit the major arteries that will cause someone to rapidly bleed out (not in 2-3 hours like what more than likely killed those 15-20% folks hit with birdshot), you need a round that is capable of deep penetration. Just getting inside the chest wall ain't deep penetration--getting deep into the chest cavity is. And birdshot has been proven time and time again just not capable of reliably doing that.

    If you want a round that will penetrate deep enough to be effective and stopping someone, you're going to have accept the fact that it's also going to go through walls. TANSTAAFL.

    And I think that not considering that you may face a similar situation as an officer foolish; it's the equivalent of saying that one doesn't need a 9mm, .40, or .45 pistol for carry, a single-shot .22 will do because we're not police officers, and we won't face the same situations they will...
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

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