My new Defense rifle - Page 4

My new Defense rifle

This is a discussion on My new Defense rifle within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by OldVet 3-7 yards. Sounds like a typical HD situation. Couldn't quite determine your position as to the HD effectiveness of birdshot, but ...

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  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    3-7 yards. Sounds like a typical HD situation.

    Couldn't quite determine your position as to the HD effectiveness of birdshot, but my assertion is that for those 2.3 hours, the person was, in all likelyhood, incapacitated from the moment of impact in the vast majority of cases, thus making the effects of the birdshot effective for HD.

    I still feel birdshot, at close, in-house ranges, will take the fight out of just about anyone.
    Here’s my take on it, I use #1 buck because as others have stated the only reliable way to stop a human attacker instantly is by hitting 3 locations; brain, brainstem, or central nervous system above the waist. Anything else and they may still have the ability to pull a trigger until they bleed out.

    As for taking the fight out of some one, there are many narratives for MOH winners that received fatal wounds and kept fighting, it can and does happen.

    Everybody worries about over-penetration of his or her weapon, but the potential is for two (or more) people with guns. I know the fields of fire within my house, IE whose bedroom is where, the other guy doesn’t care. I want that threat neutralized ASAP, so I use ammo that will get 12 inches of penetration as per the FBI’s requirements. I think this 12” requirement accounts for outer clothing and shots at “bad angles’ IE through limbs etc.

    There’s also the odd chance that I may want to shoot through a wall, or a door or a piece of furniture. The bottom line is, we’ve all got to do our own risk assessment, I value penetration above the potential over-penetration risk.

    I also would like to see more studies done, but The Western Journal of Medicine article was the only one I could find.

    Chuck
    homo homini lupus est


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Yes unfortunately I like all people in apartments around me, so I think the theoretical trade of in penetration is worth it. Also it think it is fine saying my life is different then a police officer’s. I don’t do traffic stops, I don’t go into the bad sections of the Bronx, I don’t interview or deal with suspects. The biggest situation, similar to what a police officer would see, on a normal day is a tourists ask me for directions. I’m not saying there is a chance someone could break into my apartment, or I could face violence in the street, but the odds are against it, and unlike a police officer my default plan is escape and evade.

  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array pirate's Avatar
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    Those who know these Marlin pistol caliber carbines know that a weak point of the Marlin Camp rifles (9mm and .45acp) is the wood stocks are prone to cracking behind the reciever at the tang, and replacement wood stocks are very hard to find since Marlin does not make these handy rifles any longer. So for many the Choate stock is the answer. They are no the best looking stock ever made but they do function and handle well. I have been using a Magpul AFG (angled fore grip) on one of my AR's and I do like the ergonomics of the angle grip. I had an idea and mounted it on the Marlin Camp 9 and used a 3" rail. It worked remarkable well and looks pretty good too. The Choate forend part of the stock is thin and the AFG gives you a very solid and function grip. I think I like it.

    When I leave the home port:
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  4. #49
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    One last statement on birdshot in HD and I'm moving on.

    My father-in-law committed suicide with his 12 ga, Rem. field load #6 shot. One shot to the center chest, barrel against or within an inch or two of body.

    Evidence shows it did not kill him immediately (attempted to use phone). The autopsy showed the shot did not penetrate his back. It also showed his heart and lungs were destroyed, birdshot scattered throughout his chest. Internal damage and blood loss were both massive (completely bled out). He did not make the 2.3 hours of survival, probably not even 2.3 minutes.

    Within seconds he was dead, just as dead as if he'd been hit by a 9mm, a .40 S&W, a .357 Mag, or any other handgun that anyone feels is the perfect HD weapon because it penetratres that magical 12+ inches..

    Despite this sounding like the shot was ineffective at dropping him in his tracks, No one can convince me that, if he'd been intent on doing harm to someone, a blast such as he took would not have stopped him from doing so. And isn't that what defense is all about? Ending a threat, being it by intimidation, incapacitation, dropping someone on the spot, or blowing their head clean off?

    Thinking there is some magic number of inches of penetration it takes to effectively deter someone with malice on their mind is foolish to me. We aren't robots; we aren't supermen. We all, GGs and BGs, have survival instincts that tell us to run from danger. Even Superman ducked a thrown gun.

    Most intruders are not necessarily hopped up on drugs, or looking to cause harm. They're looking for a quick buck at your expense. The mere sight of a firearm of any sort is likely to cause them to turn tail. I can't think of anything scarier than seeing the business end of a doublebarrel at close range, and the last thing on my mind would be to wonder if it had buckshot, slugs or skeet pellets.

    And if you've never been on the receiving end of a blast of those tiny, "harmless" pellets, I have, and I can guarantee you it will cause you to have immediate thoughts about being in the way of a second round, I don't care how much of a superman you think you are. It ain't the movies, it hurts like hell.

    So, if you feel you need a .458 Win Magnum to defend yourself at room distance, by all means, get the Safari double rifle and blast away. If a 9mm with 18 rounds does the trick for you, load 'er up! If you feel nothing less than a .45 ACP will do the job, then give Mr. Wilson a call and order the best he's got.

    But do not think you're big enough and bad enough, nor is anyone else, to take a shot of #6 birdshot at 5-7 yards and say, "Okay, sucker, is that all you've got?" It's not going to happen.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
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    OldVet,

    First my condolences for your loss.

    Since you’re willing to use this tragedy as an example another way to look at it might be that even after having sustained a contact wound center mass with #6 shot, your father attempted to use the phone.

    In whatever time that took, could he have pulled a trigger? What if it was at normal SD distance and not at contact, how much time could he have had?

    The 12 inches isn’t a magic number by any means, it’s a standard that the FBI apparently settled on. I don’t believe it comes with any guarantee of success, but maybe it does help the odds for success some.

    I don't think anyone believes that birdshot is harmless, just maybe not the best tool for the job.

    Chuck
    homo homini lupus est

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array C Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pirate View Post
    I have one of thoses too, a HP 995 .......yes I do like pistol caliber carbines!


    I like them they only reason I wont get the hi-point isnt the "reputation" but the fact that as of yet there are no magazines that are over 10 rounds...if I want a fun gun or a 9mm carbine its gonna be closer to a 30 rounder at least 15+ as a MUST so that eliminated the Hi-Point unfortunately...you would think that after this many years of them being out someone would have made a RELIABLE(i know there are 15 round JUNK mags out ) mag for it by now...

  7. #52
    Senior Member Array C Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    Exactly. This birdshot nonsense has got to stop. If it was designed to kill or even stop something the size of a human, it would not be called bird shot. If you are serious about defending yourself, you use a round that can actually do it with some degree of reliability.
    the smallest i use thats technically considered "birdshot" is BB or bigger I have some T that id not hesitate to use as HD load but anything smaller NOPE.

  8. #53
    Distinguished Member Array pirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Bennett View Post
    ...if I want a fun gun or a 9mm carbine its gonna be closer to a 30 rounder at least 15+ as a MUST so that eliminated the Hi-Point unfortunately...you would think that after this many years of them being out someone would have made a RELIABLE(i know there are 15 round JUNK mags out ) mag for it by now...
    Sure it would be nice if the Promag 15 rounders were not crap. But with 60 rounds loaded on the table (10x 6 HP mags I own) thats still a good bit of firepower close at hand. Of course a 50 round durm would be a blast.

    When I leave the home port:
    S&W 642 Airweight, Ruger SP 101, Colt Detective Spec., CZ RAMI, Kahr PM9, Kahr CW40, S&W Model 10-7, Glock 30, 19, and 26, Browning Hi Power, CZ82, Colt Commander, Dan Wesson PM7, Ruger LCP

  9. #54
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexHassin View Post
    Yes unfortunately I like all people in apartments around me, so I think the theoretical trade of in penetration is worth it. Also it think it is fine saying my life is different then a police officer’s. I don’t do traffic stops, I don’t go into the bad sections of the Bronx, I don’t interview or deal with suspects. The biggest situation, similar to what a police officer would see, on a normal day is a tourists ask me for directions. I’m not saying there is a chance someone could break into my apartment, or I could face violence in the street, but the odds are against it, and unlike a police officer my default plan is escape and evade.
    "theoretical" trade off in penetration?

  10. #55
    Member Array Alchemist77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    I'm with you so far, but this doesn't jibe with the astounding number of people who are shot, but don't even realize it....... The key here is velocity, which rifles have and pistols and shotguns do not. .......
    Velocity does create higher hydrostatic shock waves in the soft tissues as well as penetration, but doesn't guarantee an instant stop. I've heart-punched and center-punched a number of deer with .270 WIN ballistic silver tip's at ranges 30 - 80yds, and most managed to run 30-50 yards before falling over. That suggests to me that a similar thickness and mass human might still have a number of seconds of significant fight in them under similar conditions. I recently asked a marine who just returned from Iraq about the effectiveness of the 5.56 round as a man-stopper. His basic response was that they believed anything worth shooting once is worth shooting several times. That did not inspire me to purchase the AR-15 I was looking at in the gun shop where he was working when I asked him.

    [/QUOTE] If you are concerned with hearing loss in SD/HD situations, I have nothing for you. You might as well go to no-lead rounds for in-home use, too, since exposure to lead might have long term risks as well.[/QUOTE]

    Sorry to hear that you regard your hearing as a irrelevant consideration. Nothing provides the perfect solution, but I think I'll stick with my shotgun along with .40 S&W as backup for in-home defense.

  11. #56
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    "theoretical" trade off in penetration?
    sorry meant kill powe. i think the diffrence between the two is negligable in most situations.
    Last edited by AlexHassin; May 20th, 2010 at 01:07 AM. Reason: bad spelling

  12. #57
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alchemist77 View Post
    Velocity does create higher hydrostatic shock waves in the soft tissues as well as penetration, but doesn't guarantee an instant stop. I've heart-punched and center-punched a number of deer with .270 WIN ballistic silver tip's at ranges 30 - 80yds, and most managed to run 30-50 yards before falling over. That suggests to me that a similar thickness and mass human might still have a number of seconds of significant fight in them under similar conditions. I recently asked a marine who just returned from Iraq about the effectiveness of the 5.56 round as a man-stopper. His basic response was that they believed anything worth shooting once is worth shooting several times. That did not inspire me to purchase the AR-15 I was looking at in the gun shop where he was working when I asked him.
    The number of 5.56 close up (under 100m) wounds I have SEEN have been uniformly horrific. And, no, rifles don't guarantee complete incapacitation. I have an associate who was shot at point blank by 8mm mauser just a couple weeks ago, and had to be told he was hit by bystanders. (through and through, btw.)

    The problem with birdshot vs. 5.56 is that with birdshot, you are handicapping yourself from the get-go with a proven incredibly ineffective round. From a long gun. That's also harder to manipulate and hit than a round from a carbine.

    Sorry to hear that you regard your hearing as a irrelevant consideration. Nothing provides the perfect solution, but I think I'll stick with my shotgun along with .40 S&W as backup for in-home defense.
    So, you're saying you'd rather die than lose your hearing? The problem here isn't your round choice, it's the complete and utter lack of SD mindset. But everyone gets to make choices in life.

    You DO know that .40 S&W penetrates more deeply in wall materials than 5.56, don't you? Even saying that, I'd reverse your choice, if you insist on birdshot for SD/HD. Your .40 S&W will do a better job.

    OldVet made a really good insinuation back there, that I failed to acknowledge. Pistol rounds are not good choices at man-stopping. They're better at penetrating though than birdshot, which increases your chance at a CNS or heart shot. A pistol COM hit that doesn't hit the heart or CNS is roughly equivalent to using birdshot, for planning purposes.

  13. #58
    Member Array 9mmPro's Avatar
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