Mini 14 and AR15

This is a discussion on Mini 14 and AR15 within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by 120mm Somewhere there is a GAO study on M14 failure rates in Vietnam. Contrary to mythology, the M14 was an relatively unreliable ...

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Thread: Mini 14 and AR15

  1. #16
    BAC
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Somewhere there is a GAO study on M14 failure rates in Vietnam. Contrary to mythology, the M14 was an relatively unreliable battle rifle, and miniaturizing the action was never going to be a solution.
    It's been well known since Vietnam that the M14 is not an especially reliable or robust rifle, something demonstrated by the US Army trials of the time and consistent user feedback today. Said Army trials confirmed that the AR15 to be more reliable and more durable.

    ctr, I would consider replacing the standard stock and pistol grip. A Magpul ACS is a solid upgrade, as is swapping the grip for a MIAD or Stark SE-1. The CAR stock is good for balancing lightweight builds, but much else. I'd recommend the IMOD or UBR for stocks, but they're a little more expensive...


    -B
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.


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  3. #17
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    This one?

    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    It's been well known since Vietnam that the M14 is not an especially reliable or robust rifle, something demonstrated by the US Army trials of the time and consistent user feedback today. Said Army trials confirmed that the AR15 to be more reliable and more durable.

    ctr, I would consider replacing the standard stock and pistol grip. A Magpul ACS is a solid upgrade, as is swapping the grip for a MIAD or Stark SE-1. The CAR stock is good for balancing lightweight builds, but much else. I'd recommend the IMOD or UBR for stocks, but they're a little more expensive...


    -B
    Do you mean this one? Looks interesting. How is the check weld/fit?

  4. #18
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    A couple of folks mentioned the "brass" issue. Yeah, I forgot to mention the Mini 14 throws brass into the outfield, lol.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Do you mean this one? Looks interesting. How is the check weld/fit?
    That's the one. It's a great stock, especially for the money. Doesn't pull facial hair either (might not matter to you).

    Keep in mind that stocks, like pistol grips, are pretty personal. If the comb height isn't right for you, consider a stock with a riser. I know the Magpul CTR has a .25", .5", and .75" riser available, plus a rubber butt pad if you need it. The CTR is a bit heavier than the standard CAR stock, and according to Magpul the ACS is .2 heavier than the CTR, so the CTR + riser + butt pad should work well.


    -B
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.


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  6. #20
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    I prefer the Mini-14's lower line-of-sight over bore axis, for close-range shooting, and the safety is IDEAL for a lefty shooter, like me.

    I also own an AR15 HBAR, which is great for long-range shooting. I have used an AR15 Govt Carbine during a couple of dynamic entries, at work, and really don't want to to that again with an AR15. I have done the same with shotguns, and while the AR is handier in length than the shotgun, I prefer a Mini-14 for indoor use, based on my experiments at home. It will, however, be quite a while before I can take my PD's carbine cert class with a Mini, so for now the Mini is just for off-the-clock SD/HD.
    Last edited by Rexster; May 6th, 2010 at 08:34 PM. Reason: typo

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexster View Post
    I prefer the Mini-14's lower line-of-sight over bore axis, for close-range shooting, and the safety is IDEAL for a lefty shooter, like me.

    I also own an AR15 HBAR, which is great for long-range shooting. I have used an AR15 Govt Carbine during a couple of dynamic entries, at work, and really don't want to to that again with an AR15. I have done the same with shotguns, and while the AR is handier in length than the shotgun, I prefer a Mini-14 for indoor use, based on my experiments at home. It will, however, be quite a while before I can take my PD's carbine cert class with a Mini, so for now the Mini is just for off-the-clock SD/HD.
    Personal preferences count, in my book. Note that Mini-14s accomplish the lower sight over bore axis by dropping the comb of the stock. If that's what you're comfortable with, go with the Mini.

    Personally, I like the inline bore to recoil impulse of the AR. Of course, I have to account for my offset when shooting close targets or over and around barriers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BAC View Post
    It's been well known since Vietnam that the M14 is not an especially reliable or robust rifle
    -B
    ???????? MINE WAS, as were the others carried by my "Team Mates"VERY RELIABLE ( very early 60s) None of us would have ANY THING to do with the Orig, "Ken/Barbie" guns"

    The only "prob" with the M-14 we found was on "Full"auto.( uncontrollable) But then again we had a "different" out look on "situations"

    Puffer

  9. #23
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    "Back in the day", long before I was born, the Powell Board (1959), Hitch Report (1962), USMC LFDC report (1963), DDR&E report (1967), and one or two others I'm not remembering all commented that the M14 has no inherent reliability advantage over the M16. Aberdeen, in 1968, restates this and gives the M16 a slight nod to reliability in early service life. In modern days, there is virtually no support for the M14 system in the military (compared with other weapons), indicating it is not a long term solution for its role. Outside of the military, civi-versions of the gun rarely, if ever, make it through carbine courses (as any number of instructors can verify). Incidentally, that latter point holds true for the Mini as well.

    Building off 120's earlier point, I think a miniaturized FAL would be pretty cool. I imagine it can be made pretty lightweight and pretty inexpensively.


    -B
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.


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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    Yes they would, not many firearms are anywhere near as versatile as the AR platform.
    Hmmm, I guess the question would then be: if the Army had adopted the Mini-14/AC-556, would there not be more manufacturers making add-ons specifically for it?
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  11. #25
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    Addons, yes. Modularity, no. The core design of the AR-15 is what makes it modular. Rail systems only enhance this inherent modularity. An AR-15 can be a bunch of things by popping two pins and swapping an upper, or utilizing the newer barrel change systems by Colt, LMT, and MGI. You can't do that with a Mini; not pooping on the platform, but it is what it is. For some (most) people this doesn't matter, but for armorers and people working out of arms rooms it does.


    -B
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  12. #26
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    A few AR15s did not function so well during my PD's 4-day carbine cert course when I went through it in 2002. My Colt Govt Carbine did fine, 100% reliable in the three years I owned it, but I should note that I hastily bought that Colt because the Knight Armament SR15 my wife had earlier bought me for the purpose had shown itself to be a lemon. (It actually was part of a batch that was recalled for a fundamental flaw that NEVER should have gotten past QC.

    When my agency went through its carbine selection process, the performance and longevity of the Texas DPS Mini-14s was studied closely.

    Either weapon should suffice for private citizen SD/HD. The AR15 is best for a wartime environment, and is also easier to maintain at the armorer level. If a private citizen makes a hobby of attending carbine courses that require hundreds of rounds to be fired in a day, perhaps the AR15 is a better proposition. Mini-14s generally have to go back to Ruger for major work, there not being a widespread system of Ruger armorers, and Ruger is also quite stingy with its replacement parts, unless installed in-house.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Personal preferences count, in my book. Note that Mini-14s accomplish the lower sight over bore axis by dropping the comb of the stock. If that's what you're comfortable with, go with the Mini.

    Personally, I like the inline bore to recoil impulse of the AR. Of course, I have to account for my offset when shooting close targets or over and around barriers...
    True enough. I learned to shoot sometime before the Civil War, so it seems, anyway, with long guns having stocks with drop. The AR15, with its inline stock, requires the sights to be mounted on observation towers, er, I mean raised mounts. Nothing inherently wrong with that, and I actually do like the AR15 for long-range shooting. I also understand how to allow for the height-over-bore at CQB distance, but am more comfortable with the lesser offset found on my Mini-14s, Remington pump guns, and my many handguns.

  14. #28
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    Army tests?

    I don't put any more stock in official Army tests than I do in big tobaccos lung cancer research. The people who make such tests have a vested interest in being proved right. The Garand system is tough, reliable and combat proven. The AR system has put many a GI in the ground because it jams.

  15. #29
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    The Army did everything in its power to prove the M14 better than the AR-15, going as far as rigging tests to do so. It couldn't.

    Clue.

    The Garand was also not the benchmark of durability and reliability it's so often made out to be, as was demonstrated both in lab and battlefield settings. There's an outstanding article out there illustrating this, but hard-drive crash means bookmarks are gone and I can't find it. Hopefully someone will be along to repost the link so I can re-bookmark it...


    -B
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.


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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RebelRabbi View Post
    I don't put any more stock in official Army tests than I do in big tobaccos lung cancer research. The people who make such tests have a vested interest in being proved right. The Garand system is tough, reliable and combat proven. The AR system has put many a GI in the ground because it jams.
    You mean the military's continued ineptitude when it comes to AR maintenance have put many a GI in the ground.

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