This is a discussion on Saiga 410 for home defense within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by 120mm ITherefore, you're just shooting a guy with several ineffective projectiles that hit at the same time, in the same place. So ...
I don't see the point in using slugs in a home defense shotgun. Slugs give up the main advantage of the shotgun - the simultaneous delivery of multiple projectiles.
Slugs are good if you need to get range, or if you need more penetration - but for home defense? No. Use buckshot. Preferably #1 or 00 in a 12 or 20 gauge.
As far as the Saiga goes - my concern is the long term storage of plastic shotshells in a vertical magazine. I would imagine there is some risk of the shells deforming, and causing feeding issues (?). Plastic shotshells we just not designed for vertical magazines.
1. Manipulation and ergo tend to suck. Most HD shotguns are pumps, which require a certain level of competence to use well, and most SG users buy them based on the deficiency of competence. Autoloader shotguns are less reliable than autoloader carbines or pistols. SGs CAN be made more ergo, but you could just start out with an ergo carbine, instead....
2. At in-home distances, the spread of shot is insignificant. And the energy delivered by shot is not cumulative. A carbine does basically the same thing, only more effectively.
3. Shotguns are accompanied by a wall of ignorance and myth. "Racking the slide" to scare away intruders leads the way of mythology. It also indicates lack of mindset on behalf of the defender, imo. The belief that one doesn't need to aim SGs is another myth. The belief that anyone, under duress, can reliably manipulate a pump SG, without practice, under duress is also out there.
4. Finally, the myth of overpenetration is out there. Any shotgun round that will effectively stop a man, will penetrate modern housing materials and damage, kill someone on the other side. The cool thing is [sarcasm] that a shotgun "miss" will finally spread out after that and then you have multiple projectiles, whizzing around at random, on the other side of the barrier.
Nope. Not a big SD/HD shotgun fan at all.
But a shotgun firing slugs is dumb, imo. Unless it's all you got or you're really good at shotguns, and then that's okay. But 99% of people could either get something else, or aren't really good at shotguns.
Aerodynamics and light weight seem to be significant factors in the poor performance of the dime tests.
Also, the .410 is a very light-weight shell.
My best friend has a Judge for HD. Much as I like him, I think even he is mistaken about how effective it is.
Granted, it's better than a golf club or kitchen knife, and part of it's appeal for him is that his wife and daughter can handle it.
I don't have any serious heartache with anything above, except your "simultaneous multiple projectiles".
With a carbine, you deliver one, extremely effective projectile. At in-home ranges, you deliver several, less effective projectiles that hit the same spot. Basically. Buckshot definitely has the ability to DRT someone, though.
I would also suggest that a large amount of SD/HD shotgun owners buy them because they lack gun competence, and somehow think that the SG win "magically" hit the bad guy. Based on forum comments there is always someone here that justifies buying a SD/HD shotgun so they don't have to train, or try as hard to hit someone.
I wasn't going to go into my anti-shotgun bias, but my desire to at least put an alternate viewpoint out there for the "kills cancer/don't have to aim/sound of the shotgun racking" crowd as often and persistently as possible.
BTW, I forgot to add: Training an inexperienced person on a carbine is easier than on the shotgun.
Drifting off topic, but...
Here is an interesting discussion of various loads. You can also see a discussion of overpenetration, and of recommended shotgun loads.
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
I'm not sure how "extremely effective" a carbine round is. I train to fire until the threat is over. With a carbine, I would expect to need to fire multiple times. With a shotgun loaded with buckshot, I would be prepared to fire another shell, but I doubt I would need to (assuming I hit the target in the first place).
I agree that a semi-auto carbine is easier to "run" than a pump shotgun, but I would give the edge to the shotgun in terms of short-range terminal performance.
Plus, in some areas, it is better to use a "hunting" gun for defense than an eeeevil "assault rifle." That's just the reality.
A shotgun spread with 00 buck in HD distances is measured in inches (usually 3 or less) and yes 8-12 00 pellets hitting at the same time is going to cause a horrible wound, but to assume that one round is going to stop someone is not an assumption that I am going to make. Even with a shotgun shot placement is still key.
I am going to fire to stop the threat and stop firing when the trheat is either down, or is otherwise no longer a threat.
I am seemingly always warning people on this forum that you still have to aim shotguns, and that birdshot is for birds. For a HD shotgun I would use a 20ga or larger and load it with #4 buck or bigger.
If you are new to guns it is easier to learn to use a rifle (or carbine) reliably than a shotgun with the exception of a single or double barrel shotgun.
“You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”
― Robert A. Heinlein,
Agree on all points.
I just think the probability of one shell stopping a threat is higher than the probability of one bullet from a carbine doing the same.
A three inch spread is still greater than what you get with a carbine bullet. Another factor is that it is easier to hit a moving target with a shotgun than with a carbine - though you then have to deal with the issue of any pellets that might miss.
If you can run a shotgun, I think it is a better short-range weapon. If not, a carbine is a fine substitute.
*End thread highjack*
I wouldnt go lower then a 12 gauge for home defense . the .410 is a poor penetrator and manstopper!
get the 12 gauge Saiga
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Granted, it's better than a golf club or kitchen knife, and part of it's appeal for him is that his wife and daughter can handle it.[/QUOTE]
Thats the main thing ......seems like to me .