Saiga 410 for home defense

This is a discussion on Saiga 410 for home defense within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by 120mm ITherefore, you're just shooting a guy with several ineffective projectiles that hit at the same time, in the same place. So ...

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Thread: Saiga 410 for home defense

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    ITherefore, you're just shooting a guy with several ineffective projectiles that hit at the same time, in the same place.
    So then you don't like the 12 ga. for the same reason, right?
    I mean the projectiles are traveling at the same speed and are roughly the same size. I'm just sayin'.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    I don't see the point in using slugs in a home defense shotgun. Slugs give up the main advantage of the shotgun - the simultaneous delivery of multiple projectiles.

    Slugs are good if you need to get range, or if you need more penetration - but for home defense? No. Use buckshot. Preferably #1 or 00 in a 12 or 20 gauge.

    As far as the Saiga goes - my concern is the long term storage of plastic shotshells in a vertical magazine. I would imagine there is some risk of the shells deforming, and causing feeding issues (?). Plastic shotshells we just not designed for vertical magazines.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  4. #18
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guns and more View Post
    So then you don't like the 12 ga. for the same reason, right?
    I mean the projectiles are traveling at the same speed and are roughly the same size. I'm just sayin'.
    Yup. I detest shotguns for home defense. Here's why:

    1. Manipulation and ergo tend to suck. Most HD shotguns are pumps, which require a certain level of competence to use well, and most SG users buy them based on the deficiency of competence. Autoloader shotguns are less reliable than autoloader carbines or pistols. SGs CAN be made more ergo, but you could just start out with an ergo carbine, instead....

    2. At in-home distances, the spread of shot is insignificant. And the energy delivered by shot is not cumulative. A carbine does basically the same thing, only more effectively.

    3. Shotguns are accompanied by a wall of ignorance and myth. "Racking the slide" to scare away intruders leads the way of mythology. It also indicates lack of mindset on behalf of the defender, imo. The belief that one doesn't need to aim SGs is another myth. The belief that anyone, under duress, can reliably manipulate a pump SG, without practice, under duress is also out there.

    4. Finally, the myth of overpenetration is out there. Any shotgun round that will effectively stop a man, will penetrate modern housing materials and damage, kill someone on the other side. The cool thing is [sarcasm] that a shotgun "miss" will finally spread out after that and then you have multiple projectiles, whizzing around at random, on the other side of the barrier.

    Nope. Not a big SD/HD shotgun fan at all.

    But a shotgun firing slugs is dumb, imo. Unless it's all you got or you're really good at shotguns, and then that's okay. But 99% of people could either get something else, or aren't really good at shotguns.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Lewis128's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustynuts View Post
    Those are dimes, not disks. The 410 PDX loads combine 3 "thicker than a dime" disks and 12 BB shot pellets. As the dimes/disks get thicker, they would start mimicking slugs. And slugs are typically > buckshot when it comes to power/penetration.

    Now the PDX ammo may still be crap. It's too new to get good reviews, but it's still interesting.
    But won't disks also tend to mimic dimes?
    Aerodynamics and light weight seem to be significant factors in the poor performance of the dime tests.

    Also, the .410 is a very light-weight shell.
    My best friend has a Judge for HD. Much as I like him, I think even he is mistaken about how effective it is.
    Granted, it's better than a golf club or kitchen knife, and part of it's appeal for him is that his wife and daughter can handle it.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Yup. I detest shotguns for home defense. Here's why:

    1. Manipulation and ergo tend to suck.

    Your opinion, I suppose.

    Most HD shotguns are pumps, which require a certain level of competence to use well, and most SG users buy them based on the deficiency of competence.

    All firearms require practice and training.

    Autoloader shotguns are less reliable than autoloader carbines or pistols.

    Data to support this? Semi-auto shotguns do need to cycle everything from light target loads to heavy slugs, yet there are many reliable ones out there. My preference, however, is for the simplicity of a pump action. Plus, they cost much less.

    SGs CAN be made more ergo, but you could just start out with an ergo carbine, instead....

    Again, your opinion. I shoot trap, and find my shotgun very "ergo..."

    2. At in-home distances, the spread of shot is insignificant. And the energy delivered by shot is not cumulative.

    Agree. I do not subscribe to "energy dump." But...the simultaneous delivery of multiple projectiles (buckshot) greatly increases the probability of hitting something vital, compared to a single carbine shot.

    A carbine does basically the same thing, only more effectively.

    Not at close range. A carbine delivers one projectile. A shotgun delivers several, simultaneously.

    3. Shotguns are accompanied by a wall of ignorance and myth.

    Agree. Same can be said of other firearms.

    "Racking the slide" to scare away intruders leads the way of mythology.

    Except that it does work, sometimes.

    It also indicates lack of mindset on behalf of the defender, imo.

    Agree. You need to be prepared to fire immediately if the "racking" does not scare them away.

    The belief that one doesn't need to aim SGs is another myth.

    Agree. You still must aim.

    The belief that anyone, under duress, can reliably manipulate a pump SG, without practice, under duress is also out there.

    I don't think too many here believe that you don't need to train, regardless of the firearm used.

    4. Finally, the myth of overpenetration is out there. Any shotgun round that will effectively stop a man, will penetrate modern housing materials and damage, kill someone on the other side.

    True. ANY projectile that will reach the vitals will penetrate interior walls.

    The cool thing is [sarcasm] that a shotgun "miss" will finally spread out after that and then you have multiple projectiles, whizzing around at random, on the other side of the barrier.

    This is an issue. Remember your safety rules - know what is behind your target. Regardless of the firearm used.

    Nope. Not a big SD/HD shotgun fan at all.

    But a shotgun firing slugs is dumb, imo.

    Agree. See my post above.

    Unless it's all you got or you're really good at shotguns, and then that's okay. But 99% of people could either get something else, or aren't really good at shotguns.
    Carbines are better for folks who have issues with the recoil of a shotgun. However, at close range, nothing else available to civilians has the "stop them right now" effectiveness of a shotgun loaded with buckshot.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  7. #21
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    I don't have any serious heartache with anything above, except your "simultaneous multiple projectiles".

    With a carbine, you deliver one, extremely effective projectile. At in-home ranges, you deliver several, less effective projectiles that hit the same spot. Basically. Buckshot definitely has the ability to DRT someone, though.

    I would also suggest that a large amount of SD/HD shotgun owners buy them because they lack gun competence, and somehow think that the SG win "magically" hit the bad guy. Based on forum comments there is always someone here that justifies buying a SD/HD shotgun so they don't have to train, or try as hard to hit someone.

    I wasn't going to go into my anti-shotgun bias, but my desire to at least put an alternate viewpoint out there for the "kills cancer/don't have to aim/sound of the shotgun racking" crowd as often and persistently as possible.

    BTW, I forgot to add: Training an inexperienced person on a carbine is easier than on the shotgun.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Drifting off topic, but...

    Here is an interesting discussion of various loads. You can also see a discussion of overpenetration, and of recommended shotgun loads.

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

    I'm not sure how "extremely effective" a carbine round is. I train to fire until the threat is over. With a carbine, I would expect to need to fire multiple times. With a shotgun loaded with buckshot, I would be prepared to fire another shell, but I doubt I would need to (assuming I hit the target in the first place).

    I agree that a semi-auto carbine is easier to "run" than a pump shotgun, but I would give the edge to the shotgun in terms of short-range terminal performance.

    Plus, in some areas, it is better to use a "hunting" gun for defense than an eeeevil "assault rifle." That's just the reality.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Drifting off topic, but...

    Here is an interesting discussion of various loads. You can also see a discussion of overpenetration, and of recommended shotgun loads.

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

    I'm not sure how "extremely effective" a carbine round is. I train to fire until the threat is over. With a carbine, I would expect to need to fire multiple times. With a shotgun loaded with buckshot, I would be prepared to fire another shell, but I doubt I would need to (assuming I hit the target in the first place).

    I agree that a semi-auto carbine is easier to "run" than a pump shotgun, but I would give the edge to the shotgun in terms of short-range terminal performance.

    Plus, in some areas, it is better to use a "hunting" gun for defense than an eeeevil "assault rifle." That's just the reality.


    A shotgun spread with 00 buck in HD distances is measured in inches (usually 3 or less) and yes 8-12 00 pellets hitting at the same time is going to cause a horrible wound, but to assume that one round is going to stop someone is not an assumption that I am going to make. Even with a shotgun shot placement is still key.

    I am going to fire to stop the threat and stop firing when the trheat is either down, or is otherwise no longer a threat.

    I am seemingly always warning people on this forum that you still have to aim shotguns, and that birdshot is for birds. For a HD shotgun I would use a 20ga or larger and load it with #4 buck or bigger.

    If you are new to guns it is easier to learn to use a rifle (or carbine) reliably than a shotgun with the exception of a single or double barrel shotgun.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Agree on all points.

    I just think the probability of one shell stopping a threat is higher than the probability of one bullet from a carbine doing the same.

    A three inch spread is still greater than what you get with a carbine bullet. Another factor is that it is easier to hit a moving target with a shotgun than with a carbine - though you then have to deal with the issue of any pellets that might miss.

    If you can run a shotgun, I think it is a better short-range weapon. If not, a carbine is a fine substitute.

    *End thread highjack*
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  11. #25
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    I wouldnt go lower then a 12 gauge for home defense . the .410 is a poor penetrator and manstopper!

    get the 12 gauge Saiga
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  12. #26
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    Granted, it's better than a golf club or kitchen knife, and part of it's appeal for him is that his wife and daughter can handle it.[/QUOTE]

    Thats the main thing ......seems like to me .

  13. #27
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KWAG View Post
    Granted, it's better than a golf club or kitchen knife, and part of it's appeal for him is that his wife and daughter can handle it.
    Thats the main thing ......seems like to me .
    Aaaand around we go.

    If wife and child can handle a Saiga .410, they could just as easily handle a Saiga 7.62 x 39 or 5.45 x 39. Which actually fires a round that is much more effective.


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