Ummmm.... yeah.... What Jang said. Information overload, but Jang is spot on correct.
This is a discussion on 2 3/4" VS.3" Magnum Buckshot? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Ummmm.... yeah.... What Jang said. Information overload, but Jang is spot on correct....
Ummmm.... yeah.... What Jang said. Information overload, but Jang is spot on correct.
"Just blame Sixto"
Jang had a great reply full of excellent information.
I like the 2 3/4 Reduced Recoil load in my 870 for defensive use.
"Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".
"A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".
Janq is correct...no more power/velocity, just more pellets and if you're on target with a 2 3/4" shell, it won't make a difference. 9 double ought buckshot is more than enough to stop a fight without the extra recoil. If you miss with that load, a 3" mag won't help solve the problem.
Light travels faster than sound...thats why some people appear bright before they speak
I wanted the OP to be able to go back to his 'friend' (who has done him no favors in the suggestion) and be able to respond with science and fact as rather than; Some faceless random dudes at WeLikeGuns.com/forum told me that I don't need magnum shells.
Now he has not only my own words but much in the way of supporting hard evidence & facts to confirm and learn more on his own, as well as to share with his friend to better inform him too.
Who knows how many other unknowing suckas that 'friend' has been sharing his not so friendly nor purposeful information with.
IRL with students (hunter ed largely) and just talking to other gunfu minded folks I run into this specific item constantly.
My dad/uncle/brother/neighbor has a 'Magnum' shotgun so I gotta get one too...Because they say Magnum is better with more stopping powa!
So much bad info is out there toward firearm mechanics and ballistics that if by chance I happen to know something I will share it, most often in detail, so as to inform and educate.
What we need among us are more informed gun owners, which in turn I truly believe will make us safer as fun owners and users...As well as further reduce overall in time the amount of general societal anxiety about guns because simply to many people they are an item barely understood as though being some sort of black magic....And gun owners/users being sketchy people who wield unknown powers.
I know that sounds completely silly and ridiculous, but being quite serious I live and walk among anti-gun world and I can't tell you how many times folks have stated pretty much exactly this kind of stuff to me. To their mind that is their reality. : |
So if I have the time I will try to inform and educate best I know how.
Which sometimes is overly but not without specific purpose.
If you have any doubts get a box of each and a timer and time your follow up shots. Use a big piece of cardboard or butcher paper as a patterning target too. You might be a big dude who can handle the extra recoil and hit fast and accurate and make use ofthe extra pellets.
Me, I use Federal low recoil Flite Control OO buck.
And a true story: I guy came in and ordered a single shot 10ga and a case of magnum buckshot. He had us cut it down to just over legal length and add a strap to the front for the weak hand. I never fired it, and I assumed he was either stronger than he looked or had Sumo wrestlers mad at him.
Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)
NRA Certifed Instructor
Thanks you guys for the great opinions/advice. Especially Janq thats the info I was looking for.
The 9 pellet 00 load is not as lethal as the 15 pellet 00 loading. The best compromise is the 12 pellet 2 3/4" magnum load which has 12 pellets in 00.
Even better is the #1 buckshot pellet counts,
3"= 24 pellets
2-3/4 mag= 20 pellets
2-3/4 = 15 pellets
When defending home and family I want the most leathal load in my shotgun.
2-3/4 and 3" magnums fill my requirements.
Goldilocks says the 9 pellet 2 3/4" load is too wimpy, and the 3" load kicks too hard, but the 12 pellet 2 3/4" load is just right.
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
Outstanding post, Janq. One quick comment:
I'm not sure about this. Based on the destructive power of my handguns and shotgun that I've tested at the range, the shotgun is the most powerful weapon I have. A rifle in large caliber might have more punch from a penetration perspective, but I can't imagine a situation in which the shotgun loaded with 00 Buck wouldn't solve a HD BG problem.If you in a HD situation (not military and not police...Nor are you hunting snow geese at 50+ yds.) find yourself having to fire greater than 2 or 3 shells max...Then you need to transition to another and better weapon system such as a handgun or rifle of higher capacity and/or potential threat specific stopping power.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
Before you do anything, make sure your gun has a 3" chamber. A 3" shell will fit in a 2 3/4" chamber, but when you pull the trigger...
I've owned an Ithaca 37 and Remington 870 that would only fire a 2 3/4" shell.
"First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
Edge of Darkness
To that end the issue is not with/toward stopping power...But rather inherent capacity of the weapon system.
Once you've fired 3 shells on an average/typical capacity shotgun, you are down to just 50% capacity (3 shots remaining...1 +2 in the mag).
Now you are looking at in real time a need to either seek concealment if not hardcover in order to affect a reload, or to transition. And that is assuming you have additional shells attached to the firearm as transported in the immediate.
Thus my point and reasoning to use the specific statement of "transition to", rather than 'select'.
Through all these years that I have been actively monitoring news accounts of HD cases I can recall no incident where a homeowner found them self in an extended shootout with threats.
Specifically _lawful_ acting homeowners (not crime life related persons selling/keeping product and defending against other criminals intent to murder & steal from them).
Homeowners who were not in any way complicit to a crime or were criminal/negligent acting thereafter, such as chasing after fleeing persons no longer a threat etc.
There may be one or two out there that I just flat missed, but even if so they are exceedingly rare events.
Earthquake in DC or tsunami at New York Harbor rare.
Not impossible...Just not heard of,all that much.
Now I make use of the term 'high capacity' for specific reason as well, and not because it's been co-opted by the political machine.
Low capacity defensive firearms include; Revolvers, 1911 format pistols (not 2011 which are hi-cap by design), Sig Sauer P220 .45 ACP...And shotguns.
This is important factual stuff for folks to know and understand should they think to choose any one of these tools as options toward home defense.
Odds are good that any given citizen will live their entire life and never suffer specifically a home invasion. Most attacks toward homes are simple burglary, when the home is not occupied.
Odds are even better that if you do by off chance happen to suffer such an event that verbal warning/statements along the lines of 'Get out of my home!' and/or 'I've dialed 911!!' or 'I am armed and I will kill you if you do not leave NOW!' will have the lions share of threats heading out the door or window they entered.
But then there are the outliers...
They are either high, mentally ill (I'm convinced the lions share of criminals suffer from some degree of diagnosable mental illness...But that is another thread subject) and with either purposefully defiant.
To that end the question of stopping power toward a shotgun is without question, IF, the shooter does his/her part and wields the tool correctly (!) as well with _accuracy_. Again another thread subject entirely.
Be the ammunition used 12 gauge 00 or #4 Buck or 16ga. or even .410 00 buckshot (6 pellets)...At the end of the day the shooter is only going to have inside an average HD specific or even general purpose field gun just 5 shells in the tube and at best 1 in the chamber.
Many people keep their shotgun in cruiser ready condition, with no shell to load the chamber when ready to deploy the firearm.
That leaves them with just 4 shells in the tube and one in the chamber.
You now see where I'm going now with this as related to high-capacity.
So again if a person were to find them self having to fire greater than 2 or 3 shells max., then it is at that point (not when the gun goes empty!) that they need to be thinking okay either get to a point where I can put hand to more ammo and reload...Or better yet transition to a defensive tool that inherently has higher capacity without specific regard to relative stopping power.
Besides it should go without saying that upon time of deciding to transition that the homeowner should be going for something that on it's own has proven higher than mediocre man stopping power.
Not to imply at all that a shotgun is mediocre, but to say this means not dumping your shotgun to go grab a 10/22 or ones S&W M&P15-22 AR (!).
Unless of course you completely run out of shells or have no reasonable access to them in the immediate, and a .22LR is all you got at hand aside from a Bible and Lady Luck's left hand.
A bit much more than you likely expected but again for the sake of all readers to this thread I wanted to be complete in response, as IMHO this subject matter is mission critical toward success which is event survival...And real people past for not knowing any better have found themself being injured if not killed in their own home, even as they might have had arms at hand.
I have an 870 with extended magazine, I also have a 6 round side saddle and a 300 lumen LED light mounted(I could get a 450, but that could be overkill). I have tested my gun with both 2 3/4" and 3" and the recoil is tolerable with the 3", (I also have a ported barrel). If it were just my wife and myself, waiting in the bedroom for the police would be the plan, but my mother in law who is blind lives with us so I would have to check on her. The LED lights up a room pretty good.
Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
Richard M Nixon
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”
The most important thing is to ditch any load that uses 00 Buckshot, and replace it with something that offers much better pattern density. That is a far more important consideration than the length of the shell.
#1 Buckshot will give you many more projectiles, but is still .30 caliber in size. #4 Buckshot is much smaller at ,24 caliber, but that power is greatly enhanced by the destruction caused by it having such a denser pattern.
Winchester's 2 3/4 inch #1 Buckshot load has 16 buckshot in it, while their 3 inch #1 Buckshot load has 24 buckshot in the shell.
Federal has excellent #4 Buckshot loads with a standard 2 3/4 inch shell holding 27 and their magnum 2 3/4 load holding 34. In 3 inch, Federal's has a #4 Buckshot load that holds a whopping 41.
I personally prefer the 2 3/4 inch Federal magnum with 34 #4 Buckshot. My shotgun holds 8 +1 of them, for a total capacity of 306 Buckshot.
For folks who don't shoot a semiauto shotgun, or who just want lighter recoil, Federal now offers this 2 3/4 inch load with 34 #4 Buckshot loaded to a reduced velocity of only 1,100 fps. They call it their Premium Personal Defense load # PD156.
The full magnum load that I have has the same number of Buckshot, but has a rated velocity of 1,250 fps.
So throw out all of your 00 Buckshot ammo, and get either some Winchester shells in #1 Buckshot, or some Federal shells in #4 Buckshot.
I'd also stick with the 2 3/4 and I use #4 Buck in all my shotguns for SD. I do have 00 also just for S&Gs.
"I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"