SBS vs standard 18.5" defensive shotguns

This is a discussion on SBS vs standard 18.5" defensive shotguns within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; HG, Honestly I hadn't the first clue what you do/did for coin, no more so than you likely know what I do for same. As ...

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Thread: SBS vs standard 18.5" defensive shotguns

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    HG,

    Honestly I hadn't the first clue what you do/did for coin, no more so than you likely know what I do for same.

    As to SBS regs the following is what I have understood as per the BATFE...

    Short-barreled shotgun. A shotgun
    having one or more barrels less than 18
    inches in length, and any weapon made
    from a shotgun, whether by alteration,
    modification, or otherwise, if such weapon
    as modified has an overall length of less
    than 26 inches.

    Source - FEDERAL FIREARMS REGULATIONS REFERENCE GUIDE, 2005 [Current]
    http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf
    Page 40 of 243
    (e) Any other weapon. The term 'any
    other weapon' means any weapon or
    device capable of being concealed on the
    person from which a shot can be discharged
    through the energy of an explosive,
    a pistol or revolver having a barrel
    with a smooth bore designed or redesigned
    to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons
    with combination shotgun and rifle
    barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18
    inches in length, from which only a single
    discharge can be made from either barrel
    without manual reloading, and shall include
    any such weapon which may be
    readily restored to fire. Such term shall
    not include a pistol or a revolver having a
    rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons
    designed, made, or intended to be fired
    from the shoulder and not capable of
    firing fixed ammunition.

    Source - FEDERAL FIREARMS REGULATIONS REFERENCE GUIDE, 2005 [Current]
    http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf
    Page 77 of 243
    An AOW begins life as a normal shotgun, has always been my understanding.
    They are then converted by manner of modification into becoming an AOW. Nobody actually manufactures an AOW shotgun as a non conversion (stamping/forging), as in the US that I've ever heard of.

    ~~~

    Information as related to SBS laws:

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...-shotguns.html
    http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/laws/

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...rreled-shotgun
    Classification - Short Barreled Shotgun
    Distinctive Characteristics - Shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
    Rate of Transfer Tax - $200.00

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...e-from-shotgun
    Classification - Weapon Made from a Shotgun [Note: I suspect these imported Saiga units fall within this condition, as rather than AOW, per your commentary. My focus is and has been on domestically manufactured shotguns as rather than imported conversions. That would explain of differing views toward the same thing.]
    Distinctive Characteristics - Overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length. Both stock and barrel altered.
    Rate of Transfer Tax - $200.00

    'National Firearms Act Definitions' - http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...n-verification
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...a-shotgun.html
    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...n-nfa-aow.html

    ~~~

    For an SBS the minimum OAL twenty six inches including the barrel...Which generally eliminates folding stock options.
    Possibly the Saiga 8" with barrel measurement included is at or greater than this measurement?

    Even still if it is and assuming that I am on that specific unit, it still is again not strongly relevant to the use as discussed...Unless it also happens to come with some manner of choke (?).

    - Janq

    P.S. - Prior to going down this road the above is what I'd referenced for study toward making a decision, or not, to go the SBS route...In addition to MA state law as well.
    If I'm missing or misinterpreting something I would not at all mind your input/correction. I am not an FFL and I do not sell/transfer guns of any sort for a living.

    Are you suggesting I can install a folding stock on my SBS as current and be ATF lawful (without respect to specific state laws)?
    If so then that changes my view and makes the SBS option all that much more (!) interesting and flexible as related to my above point toward storage and ease of transport (stowage).
    With a folding stock my specific model gun could _easily_ fit inside of an average consumer backpack/CamelBak...Or a dresser drawer when traveling.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #17
    Senior Moderator
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    I'll PM you later tonight Janq, so as not to derail the discussion here.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Got ya man!

    Thanks,

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array ZX9RCAM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I'll PM you later tonight Janq, so as not to derail the discussion here.
    I for one would like to know the answer to Janq's question.

    - Cam
    If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.

    -Will Rogers

    Im a big fan of the .22LR for bear defense.
    Just shoot the guy next to you in the knee and run like heck.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    I would think the buckshot would spread out slightly more from a shorter barrel.
    Other than that, I see no advantage. The disadvantage of less capacity along with the potential bad image to a jury and jumping through hoops with ATF, I'll stick with my 18 1/2".

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    If you can't maneuver an 18.5" barrel inside your house, you need a bigger house.
    It's not about "can't." It's about improving the movement. 4-6" less can be more easily maneuvered by some, which isn't to say it cannot normally be maneuvered by those people.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  8. #22
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    I for one would like to know the answer to Janq's question
    The answer is that there is no mimimum length limit on a registered SBS. As a result, the folding stocks as well as the collapsed stocked versions are very popular. With the Saiga, there is no 2 or 3 shot limit as with the other short SBS's such as the Serbu.

    Here are a few pics. This one is a 12".


    Here is an 8". Both have folding stocks and are very handy in a vehicle or can be carried in a backpack. For pure defensive or offensive purposes there is nothing better. Think 8 shot magazine loaded with double ought buck.



    The Serbu Super Shorty....a cool gun but ony 3 shots.

    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  9. #23
    Member Array ThePeaceKeeper's Avatar
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    As far as I have always known, an AOW like the Serbu Super Shorty in a shotgun configuration was built from a virgin receiver, one that was never built as a shotgun. I own one AOW and one SBS, my AOW is a 22 cal pen gun and my SBS is a Remington 870 with a 12.5 barrel and a Butler Creek side folding stock.

    I would not use my SBS as my first choice for a home defense firearm. I have a Bennelli M2 I use and I just picked up a Remington 870 Tactical that I am going to put a Knoxx stock on.

  10. #24
    Member Array ThePeaceKeeper's Avatar
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    My wife and I went to the range today, here is my wife shooting the 870 SBS.


  11. #25
    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Negative. A shotgun that starts out life as a standard length shotgun must be registered as a SBS.
    There is no mimimum lenght requirement on one, folding stocks, collapsible stocks and standard stocks are all acceptable. All Saiga shotguns are conversions, there are no SBS Saigas imported into the U.S. thus they cannot be AOW.

    A shotgun can only be registered as AOW if it is built by the manufactures as such.If it has ever been a standard shotgun it must be registered as a SBS. AOW also includes penguns, cane guns, wallet guns and such.

    Janq...you do realize that I am an 07/02 FFL right? I deal with these regulations most every day.
    Hotguns is correct. anything classified as AOW has to be manufactured in that configuration. One that comes to mind is the old Auto Burglar. It was a double barrel shotgun with 8 or 10 inch barrels and a pistol grip. The tax on these items is a mere $5, making them economical.
    Any shotgun manufactured as a standard shotgun, then cut down below 18 inches is a SBS.
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