Project SBS: Complete and Function Tested

This is a discussion on Project SBS: Complete and Function Tested within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Correct on both points. Having the gun choked, in this case 'Modified' type constriction which n my case is _fixed_ meaning cannot be changed/adjusted/removed as ...

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Thread: Project SBS: Complete and Function tested

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Correct on both points.

    Having the gun choked, in this case 'Modified' type constriction which n my case is _fixed_ meaning cannot be changed/adjusted/removed as being part of the barrels internal profile manufacture, is what allows me to fire slug/solid projectiles through it with _fine_ accuracy.

    Where as a cylinder bore barrel, which is most conventional to 'defense' type shotguns and most every SBS I've ever heard of (aside from this specific 590A1 Compact sub-variant which was produced in short runs for just under 5 yrs. and is no longer available), would not result in nearly as much accuracy as the projectile would literally be unguided within it's bore.

    For hunting purposes the 'modified' type choke is widely regarded as being the most cross-functional of all the shotgun barrel choke types.
    For those folk who are not hunters and/or are not up on shotgun mechanics below is an image better explaining the barrel choke types (Cylinder, modified, etc.) as well as how this does affect both shot pattern in both dispersion _AND_ distance as well as solid projectile/rifled slug accuracy singular.
    None of this is applicable to rifled shotgun barrels as they are not choked as they are_not_ intended to fire any shot and to shoot only saboted solids/un-rifled slug.

    Shotgun chokes by type


    * Full Choke
    o Most Dense Patterns
    * Modified Choke
    o Tight Pattern Around 30 Inch Group at 40 Yards
    o About 60% of Pellets in Group
    * Improved Choke
    o Tight Pattern Around 30 Inch Group at 40 Yards
    o About 70% of Pellets in Group
    o Used for Duck & Pheasant
    * Cylinder Bore Choke
    o No Constriction
    o Pattern Around 30 Inch Group at 40 Yards
    o About 40% of Pellets in Group
    o Used by Law Enforcement & Home Defense
    o Used for Qual & Grouse
    * Skeet Choke
    o Pattern Around 30 Inch Group at 25 Yards
    o About 50% of Pellets in Group
    o Most Effective for Shot Range
    o Used for Trap / Skeet / Competition Shooting
    Image and information source - http://www.shotgunworks.com/category...oke_Tubes.aspx

    Conventional internal mounted adjustable/removable choke depth...As explained by Perazzi (They are functionally no different than Briley, Remington, Mossberg or any other)

    Image Source - http://www.briley.com/ProductImages/...rial_final.jpg

    Additional reading:
    'Understanding Shotgun Chokes - A brief explanation by Briley'
    http://www.briley.com/understandings...nbybriley.aspx

    'Choosing The Right Choke For Your Shotgun'
    http://www.wildfowlmag.com/tips_stra...hotgun_062304/

    The above are not the basis of my position as related to information.
    They are just the first and easiest samples that I could find to inform. I've been talking about this subject matter though for years, here, and have posted many other of same elsewhere.
    This information is easily and readily available to anyone anywhere from numerous sources including firearm, ammunition, barrel and aftermarket choke sleeve manufacturers (Perrazi, Briley, etc.).
    As well we basic hunter education instructors around the US and internationally teach _exact_ same among our course work.


    "The exact spread of the shot is determined by a constriction or narrowing at the muzzle called 'a choke'. "
    Source - http://homestudy.ihea.com/aboutfirearms/13b_spread.htm

    As to the red dot that sight, I just happened to select Primary Arms for very specific gun mount function reasons, that is exactly why I am able to better 'aim' (solid projectile as rather than 'point' as when firing shot) this gun to be so very accurate even as the barrel itself is short.
    Additionally the mechanics of the barrel being short greatly (!) reduces barrel timing (aka 'dwell') as the projectile travels through the barrel while under recoil upon firing.
    Under recoil the point of aim is in fact modified from that at the time the shooter saw (past tense) his sight picture and decided to shoot. So as shotguns are low pressure and thus low velocity, relative to a rifle, they are especially sensitive to barrel timing and from that shooter instability. See same toward the far extreme on this with blackpowder guns.

    In whole my accuracy is due to three factors:
    * Short(er) than conventional barrel length...Conventional barrels are literally TWICE the length of this at 28" (see my pic above)
    * Use of ultra modern electronic 'red dot' sight which provides a virtual 'string int he air' effect of having an unlimited distance reach out and touch to infinity type 'front sight' as on a single plane rather than two (front sight only) or three (conventional rifle sights)...And being unmagnified it does not suffer from parallax at this yardage nor magnification induced shooters error (very common).
    * Shooter skill and familiarity with both the firearm and basic understanding of both how to shoot (shotgunnery as you will) AND understanding of basic physics, whihc IMHO cannot be written off by anyone regardless of how many years they have been holdin' n' shootin' guns.

    At the end of the day _all_ of this is and can be explained by science; Physics.
    It's not luck nor does it matter what brand or make is involved.

    I'm right now out the door to go back to the range to run some more 'tests',. or atleast that's what I told my wife and I'm sticking to the story. ; )

    Happy Thanksgiving,

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #17
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    Very Nice. Great posts on all.

    I just did a 13" barrel( a door breacher) for the Marshals Office that I work for. Its a confiscated gun, so we were exempt from the fee.

    Soon I will build a short barreled Saiga, probably a 12" barrel. The Saiga is a semi of course.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Dang!

    I drive all the way out there enduring faces from my wife upon leaving only to find the ranges closed off with 'Caution' tape and a small sign out indicating that all ranges, gun and bow, are closed for the day.
    Awesome.

    Next time I move to the country I'm going to make sure it's only to land that I can shoot on and in a town that does not hate guns per it's bylaws/town regs.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    Thanks HG.
    As an item of info sharing both ammo and gun manufacturers per their own testing indicate that for shotgun ammunition (commercial) thirteen (13) inches is the amount of barrel length necessary for optimal & complete burning AND gas pressure peak within a 12GA barrel.
    The rest of the barrel on conventional guns is there for pointing purpose and balanced swing (winged game)...Contrary to very popular belief/assumption by folk who mis-apply _small bore_ and thus high pressure rifle and handgun physics to shotguns.
    It would be interesting [to me...As per the science] to see what a 12" barrel might do in same/similar configuration also with it's barrel choked; Be it fixed or adjustable.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #19
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    Very sweet shotgun . Congrats.
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

  6. #20
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    Then I have to request approval from the BATFE to take it out of state to NY so that I can use it as well toward the 2011 spring and fall turkey seasons.
    It might be easier just to change out the barrel. If you put a legal length barrel on your SBS, it is no different than a regular shotgun, meaning that you don't have to get permission from the ATF to cross state lines with it. An 18 inch barrel with thread for a choke would do what you wanted it to do for turkey hunting, and with some experimentation on the choke, it could do very well out to about 60 yards or so,depending on the load that you use.

    This had been addressed in the ATF regs. Technically, its the receiver that it registered with the ATF. Once you have the paperwork, you can swap out the barrels as you wish. A longer barrel could save you a lot of time and effort if you tend to hunt a lot in other states.

    Just a thought.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I know all of this HG and thanks; But why would I spend even more money (beyond my budget allowance) to buy a 'travel' barrel...When I could just send a letter to the ATF and ask them to give me pre-approval to travel?
    Buying an 18" turkey barrel makes moot the point of all my effort and invested time & expense.
    For that matter I might as well have just bought an 18" turkey gun to start and used that as a base. I expect to have no issue toward my travel allowance request.

    I have at hand though a 20" Browning 16 GA (my normal deer gun) and have access to a 20" Remington Super Magnum Turkey as well as 'Ye Olde Curtain Rod' being the S&W 3000 12GA goose gun w/28" barrel, all I've been using for some time toward turkey and deer as it is, and freely able to travel with.
    Only other state I hunt in current is NY.

    BTW in other news one of my primary hunting mentors was at my place today to have turkey day dinner with my family and I shared with him both my target as well as let him toy around with the gun in my garage.
    He was stunned. Then I explained to him the physics of why things work the way they do.
    Note that 2 yrs. ago when I first noted to him I was working on this project he'd said nah you don't want to do that..It won't work as he'd brushed it off.
    Today he asked three times if I could build him same using his own Browning 12GA or a Remy 870 as a base. And I will.
    Woot! 8 p

    I plan to hit the field Monday in MA for winter deer season open.
    I'll be bringing the angry but accurate thunder stick with me, and leaving the traditional Browning 16GA at home.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Pretty sweet and logical uses, for $800 give or take. That's there is a fine job.

  9. #23
    Member Array mfcmb's Avatar
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    Janq: Thank you very much for sharing all this info.
    In the heat of the moment, what matters is what your body knows -- not what your mind knows.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    Awesome post, sir. If I may offer an opinion, try the Federal Flite Control loads (both in turkey appropriate loads as well as HD loads). I get excellent performance from them in short modified choke barrels. You may be able to extend your turkey range even further.
    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

    NRA Certifed Instructor

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Roger that Superhouse...Will look for it among local shops.

    Thanks for the tip!

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Update:

    Today I finally made it to the range and actually got to shoot after multiple false starts.
    But I didn't have much time and the sun was dropping fast.

    Todays mission was to sight in a former BHE students shotgun for her to show her what she could expect in function at various ranges toward deer hunting.
    It is a Remington 870 Express 20GA with 26" barrel and a type 'Modified' threaded internal choke.
    Ammo was Remington 'Slugger' 2- GA 2 3/4 5/8 oz. Hollow Point rifled slug
    The barrel is smoothbore with a full length sight rib and a silver metal BB bead front sight
    ALL five shots were fired standing, off hand with no sling under overcast & grey sky w/ a gusting but light ~ 10 mph. wind...First shot was a cold shot straight out the bag toward a gun I am unfamiliar with (She dropped it off at my house last night).



    Now compare that to my SBS which I fired at same distances _after_ shooting the 20GA/distance for just three shots fired...



    With no wind I'd have been in the circle with every shot fired...EASY!
    As well with my gun sighted in asit is currently I should be able to push back to 125 yds (!) without issue and _stay_ within the circle.
    To go further back I'd have to screw with my elevation more or use artificial holdover...But I'd not be able to see the target at that point without magnification.

    Yesterday I ordered from PA a 3 reddot 3Xmagnifier. 8 D

    Functionally this 'Multi-Use' gun running off the shelf find them anywhere rifled slug could realistically do the same job as a rifle only firing 1 oz. .458 caliber projectiles, and do so with _accuracy_.

    Now go back and take special note to the pattern difference between my gun with 14" barrel and the Remington running a 26" barrel, which is 54% longer in length!
    Think about that for a moment as in relation to projectiles traveling down a tube..AND...natural recoil (of the gun) as well as felt recoil as imparted upon any given shooter (not just me).
    People commonly talk about accuracy and cite figures as from guns that are bagged and/or strapped down into shooting rests. That means nothing, IMHO.
    In fact shooting from a rest or bags is actually the last thing you want to do IF you are focused on accuracy as related to actual and normal use of the specific tool; Which in this case is hunting.

    Heresy one might say. Yes, it is. But hear me out...

    When is the last time you saw a deer, or turkey, hunter _in the field_ shooting shotgun from a shooting rest?
    Or how about from a gun that is bagged?
    Yep...I thought so. Me neither.
    A clue to this is that no body markets Real tree pattern shooting rests (!).
    So stand up and shoot off hand when sighting in. As well delete the sling...Odds are you won't have time nor option to sling up anyway so don't cheat yourself (!) while at the range.
    Even as you might see everybody else and their been hunting for 50 yrs. brother doing same.

    Recoil...It is unavoidable. With a shotgun.
    Regardless of how big or heavy tor strong he individual shooter might be.
    Because of recoil the gun will move. It will _SHIFT_ from point of immediate aim at time of trigger pull, to time that the projectile (in this case a solid slug) exits the barrel.
    Though to our perception the two might be instantaneous; Fact of the physics and math matter is it is all kinds of NOT.
    As the gun is fired it IMMEDIATELY begins a recoil phase. The gun wants to lift and in many cases pull left (depends on the stock and shooter shouldering alignment).
    While this recoil is happening the projectile is STILL within the tube travelling toward whatever daylight the barrel is aligned toward in thousands or hundreds of a second later.
    If the shooters body moves in some way (natural and IMPOSSIBLE to prevent...unlike when shooting with a rest) or there is flinch then the differential from intent to actual is even greater.

    Add to that a tube that is physically twice or more as long.
    So a projectile within a 14" tube has to travel X amount of tube distance as measured in time.
    A projectile in a tube that is 26" travels a distance 54% greater and _longer_ in time as traveled!
    The point is to get the projectile out of the gun and down range...Not to capture it within an inordinately long tube so as to do nothing but sap energy from it (max powder burn rate is at ~13" and max velocity is at ~18"!) AND to secondarily _re-aim_ the projectile as being different from the initial point of aim purpose.
    HERESY!

    Nope. Science.
    Math, physics and consideration for _time_.
    All things that everyone knows are real and relevant; As even to hunters and game animals.

    Compared heads up with same shooter even as I did have a red dot sight on the SBS...I still would have been _less_ accurate at a given distance with the long barreled Remington.
    Why? Because of the barrel length.
    Or rather inversely and most importantly; Having a 54% shorter barrel gun that allows me to much better carry it in the field, quickly and _noiselessly_ shoulder and point as to acquire the target AND running a modern red dot (rather than magnifying optics which slow down a shooter) so as to literally paint what ever it is within my visual range...The multiple benefits of this make moot the point of running a conventional never mind exceedingly long barrel shotgun.
    As well it also makes moot the common view that one needs to run a rifled barrel to gain most accuracy as related to deer...And spend $9-13/box on shells!
    Not at all. I spent $4.99 on my shells and scored them from Dick's for half price off at that. And I can find them in stock most anywhere guns are sold.

    Heresy?
    I think not as the proof is in the pudding.

    Folks out there with say for example more common 18" defense guns who do not want or cannot afford to buy multiple specific purpose guns.
    I say screw convention and rather go get yourself a rail system be it receiver mount or something saddle style (see AimTech) and then invest in a quality reddot, which generally cost 1/4th that of a conventional 'quality' shotgun scope.
    Heck if my reddot for some odd reason a year or two from now begins to lose zero i either send it in for a warr. repair OR I simply buy another one, at 1/4th the cost of a shotgun scope....Which also over time/use do lose zero and/or break too.

    Considering times right now are hard for folk and families as related to coin, I figure that If I can do this with a 14" barrel then there is no good reason at all that same could not be done with a normal 18" barrel gun. Especially one that is choked in some way.
    Folks can very seriously feed their families using their normal home defense shotgun IF they don't mind going against the grain a bot and forgoing convention & tradition in favor of physics, time and _MONEY_.

    Yesterday I ordered three more reddot sights from Primary Arms along with a reddot 3X magnifier.
    One will go on my carbine and the other two were purchased as gifts. The 3X magnifier will do double duty floating between my carbine (primary) and the shotgun on range days when I want to have fun shooting slug at pie plate sized targets as beyond the 125 yd. line.

    - Janq

    P.S. - No disrespect intended toward traditionalists and those who are not comfortable being unconventional.
    Please do continue to run your wood furniture and/or Mossy Oak colored polymer long barrel guns with iron sights or optics mounted to the receiver via rings. And continue to sight in using rests and bags too.
    My opinions are my own and you do not have to buy them.

    I am officially going to turn in the 16GA 24" barrel iron sighted Browning Auto-5 I've been using, and this gun now becomes my primary.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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