Project SBS: Complete and Function Tested

This is a discussion on Project SBS: Complete and Function Tested within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Tuesday Nov. 23, 2010 Mossberg 590A1 'Compact' Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS) w OEM /14" barrel 12 gauge Fixed modified choke Hahn Precision receiver mounted 1913/Picatinny ...

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Thread: Project SBS: Complete and Function tested

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Project SBS: Complete and Function tested

    Tuesday Nov. 23, 2010

    Mossberg 590A1 'Compact' Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS) w OEM /14" barrel
    12 gauge
    Fixed modified choke
    Hahn Precision receiver mounted 1913/Picatinny rail and oversized safety
    Primary Arms 'Microdot' red dot sight [By way of the company owner who is not a hunter but thought my concept idea was interesting enough that he heavily discounted my purchase on the spot.]
    OEM tritium front rifle type blade sight (Emergency)

    Remington 'Slugger' rifled slug 2 3/4" 12GA
    Brenneke 'K.O.' foster slug 2 3/4' 12GA



    I'd though of this concept four years ago.
    Began working toward it three years ago.
    Today it comes to a close.

    Concept:
    One shotgun (receiver and barrel) to meet four distinctly different tasks in functional capability.
    1) Home Defense and Combat Shotgun [Efficient for storage within and navigating small spaces while being able to deliver good stopping power.]
    2) Turkey hunting [Able to provide a controlled killing power cloud out to 40 yds.]
    3) Deer slug gun [Able to direct precise projectile solids between 50 and 75 yds.]
    4) Total cost of build at or less than $800 including all fees & taxes.

    All three of these on the surface to traditionalists are opposite opposed.
    But not if if you start from a book that has no pre-conceived notions and by that does not hold to convention for simple sake of being conventional (!).

    I've had multiple folk tell me my plan was stupid and/or not possible both in person, including fellow instructors, as well as via the internets at various gunfu forums that shall remain nameless.

    Well today the proof is in the pudding and all doubts have been put to rest.

    The above target was shot by me as _off hand_ and _standing_ with _no sling_ and using no magnifying optics of any sort with _commercial_ ammo I'd bought from my local Dick's!

    There were three other guys on the line with me today all firing high dollar deer slug guns every one using optics by normal convention, and they were firing as seated at a bench from shooting sleds with their guns strapped within to arrest recoil. Their results were same as mine.
    I don't own a rest, have never shot from one...And don't have one with me when I'm in a tree stand (!) real world.

    They stopped shooting to watch me shoot and take note of my results,to then ask; "What kind of gun is that?...That barrel is awfully short!"

    : )


    One of the former RSOs from S&W drove up as I was leaving and we chatted about my results. He was stunned.
    I told him it's just a matter of physics...And that shotguns and their shells contrary to popular belief are _not_ same as rifles and handguns as related to barrel length.

    Anyway this project is now officially done and put to bed.
    I'll be running this gun day after Thanksgiving toward winter deer in lieu of the Browning 16 gauge.

    Oct. 24th, 2010
    Same range...Same distance (50yds)...Same conditions standing off hand w/no sling...Though wind that day was not still but rather ~ 15mph right to left.


    Then I have to request approval from the BATFE to take it out of state to NY so that I can use it as well toward the 2011 spring and fall turkey seasons.

    To my mind this is the ultimate as they say 'Zombie' tool platform.
    Slugs for intermediate trouble interdiction and shot of varying type for close up personal defense...In a package that easily will fit in a backpack.
    If there was such thing as a zombie aside from mother rapers and child takers by the name of Deebo or Hayes.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    Those shots at the bottom of the paper were my ranging shots as I was working to bring the elevation of the sight up across three tries to meet center of the 'Shoot N See' target.
    I had to dial in 24 clicks of elevation to put these heavy 1 ounce projectiles at dead center as POA.
    The group of five at the center were all in one continuous string being the IMHO VERY accurate & consistent Remington 'Slugster' shells. They are what I run in the 16 ga. and I get exact same hit what you look at exactly where you look at results.

    The outliers to the outer edges of the paper were the Brenneke which had reduced recoil and with that longer barrel timing as well as time of flight. They are a lighter projectile as well which makes them inherently less accurate than the heavy and higher velocity (higher recoil!) Remington.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Nice,I shot 2 SBS's last Sunday,Benelli M4 Semi Auto 14" Secret Service tradein,and a Remington 870 Police 12" pistol grip,They were fun to shoot but I can't justify the money for a barrel shorter than 18"
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Duk,

    If there was one thing I could change about this rig, and I was thinking this today on the range, is that I wish I could have had this as an autoloader...Such as say a 930 SPX.
    Sadly such an option just was not/is not available at all.

    Keep in mind this is not just an SBS but it is in order to be MA compliant an OEM _as manufactured_ SBS barrel (I fought with the Atty Gen. office on this point and won)...And this specific barrel is also a modified choke rather than cylinder bore.
    If it had not been available to me as modified choke, then I would not have gone through the great trouble and expense...Unless I lived in a state where a modified short barrel would be lawful and by that I'd then have it threaded for an internal/removable choke.

    Remy 870 Police are all cylinder bore as are as I understand the Benelli SBS variants too.
    Accuracy with those will not be nearly same for same results shot or slug....Which most often from students and my fellow instructors they look at me like I've lost my marbles and they comment yeah I used that in [fill in the blank foreign land] to blow off door hinges.
    Until I show them the small print stamping into the barrel itself and they are all huh WT... face.

    Next project: Precision rifle.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    I've had multiple folk tell me my plan was stupid and/or not possible both in person, including fellow instructors, as well as via the internets at various gunfu forums that shall remain nameless.
    Generally these people are unable or unwilling to think “outside the box” and anything that does not meet their preconceived criteria will never work. Great looking shotty that will see double duty providing venison stew or roast turkey while serving a self defense role.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

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    Nice setup, looks like a perfect small room/hallway HD weapon with a punch.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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    Nice. Looks like it is plenty accurate . I read through , however it was unclear if you were planning on using a second barrel for turkey( I would assume so) ? If using the same barrel I would be interested in seeing the pattern it made with various shot.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Nope Rocky, no second barrel for turkey necessary.
    One gun as...One receiver...One barrel...One setup...Three applications...Under a grand ($800 optimal).

    The barrel being modified is what makes it function very well at ethical turkey kill distances.
    I don't and wont hunt turkey at greater than 40 yards....There is just no reason for that, IMHO.

    What affects pattern is choke not barrel length as very many people assume and has become common non-science wisdom.
    All that barrel length does, and did for generations, was provide the shooter with a pointing plane to sight down/along (front sight regardless of type or none) so as to better track the target and to maintain hold just before, at and after trigger pull.
    From that the odds of a target hit do increase and the odds of fine target accuracy also increase...Which is then mistaken to be some manner of increase in 'kill power' toward the ammunition as related to the barrel length. Same applies to winged game and targets (clays) too.

    I knew that effectively increasing the barrel length using _modern_ tools by way of a red dot which has an sight distance of infinity would more than make up for the differential in barrel length.
    The reddot itself becomes a virtual _as seen_ barrel length increaser...Only far better than any barrel ever made because you can literally place the tip of this virtual barrel direct ontto the target touching it.
    Do this, toggle the trigger...THUMP!...And a hole appears at/onto the target; Not accounting of course for very real physics such as barrel timing, flight time, gravity, wind/exterior ballistics, shooter flinch, and external deflections (brush and stuff).

    All of this on paper and by way of books made sense by math and physics.
    But in my research I couldn't find anyone who actually had done this, and believe me I tried!, which frankly stunned me.
    Lots of folks have SBS' but every person I've ever spoken with only had one as a cylinder bore. I called gun shops and barrel folks and nobody even heard of anything but cylinder bore n an SBS...Insert talk about military and law enforcement and 'street sweepers'.
    I then asked if anyone with a cylinder bore SBS had done a choke install be it internal or external. More looks of are you serious/crazy and/or silence over the phone.

    Even my fellow BHE instructors who know me well had same things to say.
    So that is when I thought okay this is a project that hasn't been done, or known to be done, and by my analysis is a reasonable item that could be pulled off is built up correctly with specific parts & accessories.

    The result is this.

    Later today I am going to go back to the range to blow holes out of some 8" paper plates...Because it's fun as hell to shoot shotguns. : )

    - Janq

    P.S.
    As an item of note I was very specific bout what type of electronic sight aid could be used.
    For example I have had an EOTech for over a decade but that wouldn't work as it's too tall and the base too thick to get a good & proper cheek weld as rail mounted. Not a necessity toward firing shot as in a combat role, but critical when firing solids (slugs) as with intent of fine accuracy akin to a rifle.
    I looked at the Burris Speedfire system as mounted between the reciever and the stock whihc is pretty nifty...But I wanted something in a more forward mounted 'scout' type configuration so that as I am looking at a given target I could very quickly bring the gun up and shoulder without having to break my plane of sight.
    This specific product from Primary Arms per my discussions with the owner has a very low baseplate profile which allows for nearly same plane viewing across the receiver top...Which for this project is optimal. In fact it's so low that my OEM front rifle sight co witnesess in the lower third of sights window, as I have it mounted. So if the dot goes down I'm still functional toward firing slug at distance (add a 1/4" holdover).
    Whereas shooting shot does not generally need the sight at all just look, point and shoot...Or for turkey with fine accuracy activate the dot and hold per pattern of a given ammo selection.

    This season up to a week ago in NY I had been using toward turkey a S&W Model 3000 'goose gun' (Remington 870 metric spec built by Sako of Japan...Very smooth action!) that has a 28" barrel.
    With a barrel that long a person could reach out and touch most anything...But the gun is by that barrel length alone inordinately heavy and managing it in brush is work. Also interestingly the felt recoil impulse with it is more harsh than same ammo fired out of the SBS.
    Physics and tradeoffs.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    You Are Right Jang,the Benelli while having ghost ring sights,at 25 yards has a fairly large pattern with slugs,not even close to your pattern at 75 yards.The 12" Remington,forget it It's a closeup scattergun,At ten yards with birdshot It covered the sihouette
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I forgot to emphasize my reason for even entertaining this project; Common man cost.

    Talk to traditionalist and they will tell you that the home defense oriented shotgun is not applicable to hunting.
    And that the turkey gun is not applicable to deer slaying.
    While talk to a LEO/Military personand they will tell you that using one for the other is an exercise in futility.

    None of the above are truths.
    Or rather have to be truths IF the end user, aka 'Operator', goes into the effort from that start making wise(r) choices.

    What I have done could very easily be duplicated by anyone minus the ATF tax stamp expense with a conventional 18" barrel shotgun IF they make their purchasing decision wisely.
    Select a smooth barrel shotgun that has OEM either a fixed modified choke (the most widely purposeful type choke there is for hunting) or if they select a barrel that has OEM a removable choke threading or if they take their currently cylinder bore barrel in to a reputable gunsmith to have it threaded to accept internal chokes (Should cost no more than $75) and they then install a quality modified choke sleeve.

    The rest is a 1913/Picatinny sight rail and a shotgun quality red dot mounted and sighted in.

    For HD leave the red dot in the off position as forward mounted. If the barrel has no front bead or sight whats so ever then that is not a problem. It's a point and shoot tool to said application.
    For turkey use if the barrel has a front sight then use that and leave the reddot off. Or add a fiber optic clip on and reference that. Easy and cheap.
    For deer use reference the pre-sighted in reddot and run the gun with _quality rifled_ slug that you have pre-sighted in for fine accuracy.

    Now you have one gun that protects your home, feeds your family and provides you with possibly a lifetime of reduced/low cost sporting enjoyment without breaking the bank or wasting coin on buying two other PT use shot/slug guns.

    This is the message I will share with my BHE students who these days in this economy are pinching dimes & pennies every way they can.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #10
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    Well, I'm glad to see that you voted.

    Seriously though, that is a cool weapon system you have there. Any plans for a sling on it? It actually looks like there is a single point hook up between the stock and receiver, but no sling attached.

    Man, I'd love to put that set-up on my 930 SPX, that would be crazy fun.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Buckeye,

    I will sling it.

    Normally I run field guns with no sling but only because they have been conventional being long barrel, and at that in my area with thick brush basically unmanageable and even to a degree unsafe to tote as slung.

    Below is a pic of me snapped by one among my hunting party from two Saturdays ago during the end of the NY turkey season.


    The gun is the S&W Model 3000 I'd mentioned in a prior post.
    Walking through anything but very light woods wearing this thing attached to your body is an effort. And it weighs like a fireplace log too...For no good reason aside from just being big barreled. Steel weighs.
    So with this gun concept I built up by intent it being literally "Compact" allows the operator to more easily manage it as a tool wherever you might be, in the field.

    The sling I have on order for it (should be here next week) is the following...

    Vero Vellini 'Double Backpack Sling' aka "Climbing Double Sling"

    Image 1 Source - http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ical-shooters/
    Image 2 Source - http://www.ammoland.com/2009/04/23/v...e-rifle-sling/
    Press Release - http://www.pioneer-research.com/asse...bing_Sling.pdf
    Product page w/link to product catalog - http://www.pioneer-research.com/verovellini.asp

    This sling acts as a three point that is down convertible to either a two point or even a one point.
    Further it can while on the ground (turkey and still hunting) or in a treestand be easily setup as a true sling for sake of comfortable and effective hold of the gun toward accurizing shots....Akin to conventional slinging up in a rifle when shooting standing or seated.

    The gun came OEM with sling mounts at the mag cap and to the stock.
    I'd added an Ergo brand 'Double Sling Loop' as well so that I can run a sling either in a traditional format as for hunting carry or toward combat use (range use training) run it as a one point should I desire.

    Seriously anyone with just about any modern shotgun could configure/reconfigure their own gun as in same convention and be just as effective.
    For example with your 930 SPX (my personal unicorn!) what I'd do is either have the OEM barrel threaded to accept RemChoke brand chokes (RemChoke because they are well known to have very strong thread pattern AND _everybody_ makes Remington pattern chokes plus they can be found most anywhere...Deer/Turkey and BGs won't know the difference) or as it's likely cheaper I'd order from Mossberg a replacement barrel from a 935 turkey gun that is factory threaded for chokes.
    Next source a shotgun quality low mounting profile red dot (Tasco won't work nor will EOTech due to base height issues) and then do as I did investing an hour and 10 to 30 shells toward sighting in the gun for slug to the reddot at your yardage of choice.
    You only need the reddot activated when firing slug. All other times you just look through the glass at your target (HD) and/or use the barrels stock sight as toward turkey which again is going to be 40 yds. on the outside.

    Below is a detailed parts list for reference:

    Hahn Precision 'M590A1 Safety Rail'

    http://hahn-precision.com/Shotgun_c12.htm
    Note: This is designed and optimized for Mossberg product, but will fit with some adjustment non 590 Mossy guns.
    They also sell a second version for those who do not wish to convert over their OEM safety switch to the very large and _EASY_ to function when wet/cold or with gloved hands as part of that package.
    The other rail can be even more easily adapted to not just Mossy but other mfr. shotgun receivers too if they are pre-drilled.
    http://hahn-precision.com/M590A1-Rail-MPR0105.htm
    As well I modified my oversized safety button to show WHITE when set to safe and the receiver itself has a painted RED dot to show hot when the safety is deactivated. This is very handy in low light (but not pitch black) situations as the white is reflective.

    Ergo
    Tactical 'Double Sling Loop Shotgun End Plate' for Mossberg

    http://www.ergogrips.net/item-detail...TOKEN=47976185
    Note: They offer same for Remington too, although there are like twenty different vendors of this exact same part configuration for Remington.
    I went with Ergo only because it was for me free/no cost per a gift certificate I'd won earlier this year.

    Speedfeed
    'SPEEDFEED® I MAGAZINE TUBE STOCK SET'
    [Supports two shells per side totalling four overall]

    http://www.speedfeedinc.com/products.html
    Note: When I ordered my gun as OEM it was available to be configured with the Speedfeed stock as an upgrade option. The cost of this option was much lower than the lowest acquisition price I then could locate it for via third partys.
    I choose to go with this because it offers me three very good functional options.
    * I can increase or decrease the real weight of the gun at will which in turn presents great benefit to further absorb recoil if and when need be. Just load it up with heavy/lead projectiles. 4 x 1oz projectile = 1/4 pound additional of felt recoil absorbing mass!
    * I can in the field carry safely without concern for loss all of my shells on the gun rather than in my pocket. Ever accidentally drop a shell in the woods and have it go missing, all because your pants or jacket pockets are not deep? It sucks.
    As well with no ammo carrier hung on the side of the gun to get bashed nor elastic cuff on the gun with again ammo jutting out...This option is literally airplane wing smooth.
    * For HD/combat use I can carry six (6) in the magazine (OEM w/no extender) plus chamber 1 while having on the gun an additional four shells in the stock ready to roll.
    That is functionally 11 rounds at the ready before needing to resupply....And again it's all effectively self contained and slick sided unlike every other shell option I've ever seen.

    For me the stock has been working very well.
    I train with it in the field, at the range and at home (using Snap Cap 12 ga. type aluminum shells) and I've found it to be very reliable and best of all caveman simple to run. I prefer simplicity and functionality.
    For those who prefer or require a butt pad extension that is easy enough to do on this stock with a slip on type product as it does not get in the way of the shell tubes per my trial testing from a borrowed for giggles Remington branded item.

    Primary Arms
    'Microdot w/ Removable Base _AND_ Kill Flash (Anti-Reflection Device)'

    http://www.primaryarms.com/product.s...3&categoryId=5

    Note: I specifically sourced this product rather than continue to use a panoramic red dot I'd had mounted because there was no way to obscure the objectives glare which is part & parcel to how these type non prism based (EOTech) devices work. Also the unit began to exhibit loss of zero under real world use with slug. Using shot it was fine but for slug not dependable, so I was forced to source a second and better option. I came to choose PA and a trial and as based on the results shown it is for me on my gun in my hands; Excellent.
    Even better that it comes OEM with an option for an ARD not just to look tacticool but rather for real function toward game animals, especially very keen eyesight having turkey.

    Here is the same model only with no ARD option.

    Image Source - http://www.comentakeit.com/primary-a...ot-review.html

    Note the amber/orange objective coloration...That perfect circle is exactly what game animals in the woods would/do see and it is not natural to their environment. Does it matter? I don't know. But for very little additional cost I decided to address it regardless.

    Last item that as yet remains unsourced is a pic mounted low profile QR clamp style flashlight holder.
    I want something exactly like this to be mounted exactly same as toward HD/combat use...But I don't want to pay darn near $80 for it.


    Image Source - http://www.elzetta.com/Webpages/faq.htm

    This is good kit but I'm not willing to spend $65.95 (lowest cost of two product options) so I'm still looking for just the right component product with durability, low mount profile and being common man reasonable in pricing.
    I will mount within it my Gladius which currently has been for years my primary bedstand as well as hunting/field use illuminator.

    BLACKHAWK! Gladius Flashlights Demo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obi3n3OVwHw

    - Janq

    P.S. - I applied that sticker to both this gun as well as the upper limb of my bow; Both being items that I feature (bow in 2011) toward students in the BHE courses I instruct.
    It is VERY IMPORTANT that folk like us in mindset do be active and actually get up off our duff to vote. I tell students this in every class I teach but I figured them seeing this as a visual reminder would help sink it in.
    Also it was an opportunity for me personally to teach my kids yet another lesson in civcs AND science. I'm big on both.
    So I had my daughter retrieve my wifes sticker from the garbage can and then I talked with both my kids about how voters can increase or decrease my and their rights to do most anything, simply by expressing their opinion in the form of a vote.
    Along with that I showed them how clear nail polish hardener as 'borrowed' from mommy can double as a very excellent waterproof semi-permanent adhesive as well as opaque colored materials protectant. McGyver solution #1,234,567-8C : p
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #12
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    Nice weapon! It's good to see a project work out well, isn't it?

    My late uncle won many "campfire" bets about slug accuracy. He routinely knocked tin cans off stumps at 50 yards--with a bead sight! I've seen him do it at 100 yards on the second shot.

    Glad to hear you "educated" the AG. I had to do it here with a county attorney. One would think people at that level would know the law!
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    OV,

    I ran into trouble starting with my local police chiefs assignee (toward the ATF Form 4) and from there it went up hill with two so called police 'gun law experts', two chiefs (I called on a third for assistance as he is heavily involved in MA legislation) and through first the regional G office (off the record agreement with my positional view of the law as it is _printed_) and finally to the top in Boston.
    It was a lot of work but at the end of the day it came down to misinterpretation of simple verbiage to being mis-applied and as a result mis-enforced (!)...With as I was told by the local PD plural that many others before me who wished for same had been turned away for years on what was wrongful pretense.

    Oddly nobody else but me for a decade had the thought or made the effort to look a police in the eye and say. with respect, No that is an incorrect read/interpretation of the law.
    They told me to get an attorney...So I went home, picked up the phone and started by calling the regional AGs office.

    Two years ,many phone calls and an AG letter later; I got my gun.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    Jang, great looking gun there! What does it do with your turkey loads?
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

    Stupidity should be painful.

  16. #15
    Member Array mfcmb's Avatar
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    Janq, have I understood the essence to be:

    o A modified choke is what allows the gun to SHOOT SLUGS accurately?

    o The Primary Arms red dot sight is what allows you to AIM the gun accurately?
    In the heat of the moment, what matters is what your body knows -- not what your mind knows.

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mossberg 590a1 sbs

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mossberg 590a1 short barrel
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mossberg 590a1 short barrel shotgun

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mossberg sbs

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primary arms micro dot
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remington slugger

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remington slugger rifled slugs
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rifled slugs
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sbs slug gun
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shotgun chokes explained

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