Home Defense With a Shotgun - Page 3

Home Defense With a Shotgun

This is a discussion on Home Defense With a Shotgun within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; A 410 loaded with 00 buck has approx the same energy level as a 44 mag. Three 32 cal projectiles traveling at x velocity; you ...

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Thread: Home Defense With a Shotgun

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    A 410 loaded with 00 buck has approx the same energy level as a 44 mag. Three 32 cal projectiles traveling at x velocity; you do the math.


  2. #32
    Member Array 147 Grain's Avatar
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    410 is a bigger number than 12, right?
    Aim for the Thoracic Triangle Area between the armpits and the base of throat.

    1. Shot Placement: Center Mass Between the Armpits & Base of Throat
    2. Heavy for Caliber Bullet Weight / Construction
    3. Choice of Caliber

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Agreed on all points.



    - Janq
    Gee, thanks for the idea...now I'm gonna have to find a pistol holder for my HD shotgun. (<------just in case, this is a sorry attempt at humor)
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.

  4. #34
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    A 410 loaded with 00 buck has approx the same energy level as a 44 mag. Three 32 cal projectiles traveling at x velocity; you do the math.
    Spreading out the energy level of a single projectile among three projectiles does not "equal" anything. More like shooting someone three times with an extremely inefficient .32 ACP or even less.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    Spreading out the energy level of a single projectile among three projectiles does not "equal" anything. More like shooting someone three times with an extremely inefficient .32 ACP or even less.
    They did a study on this years ago, probably longer than you have been around, and thats what the experts concluded, and was the inspiration for the Mossberg home defender shotty in that gauge. I cant remember the numbers, or have the inclination to look it up, but it was a definate eye opener to some people back in the day. At distances in the home, it is very effective. I wouldnt call a hit with 3 32 caliber projectiles at the same time inefficient at all.

    Just looked up some info on the energy levels. It seems they claim out of a shotgun, the 410 produces 600 fpe, more than the 357 mag. Thats the Federal load. Nope , I wouldnt call that ineffiecient by any measure.

  6. #36
    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    Now here is the problem. To efficiently stop/kill someone, you need penetration. Not my idea, just the idea of most folks who seriously study killing people.

    Are you telling me that 3 .32 caliber round balls will penetrate better than a .357 mag?

    There's a much better study done by the FBI that seems to think penetration is where it's at. Buckshot is not bad, mind, but the .410 is overrated right now, mainly because of lots of marketing devised toward less than informed firearms consumers.

    And what is it with people referring to me as young? I turn 47 in a couple weeks. Of course, most 47 year olds aren't rocking it like I am, but trust me, I've read the studies, seen the data, etc..

    The one thing we haven't mentioned, of course, is how difficult shotgun manipulation is while under stress.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I would be happy if someone called me young, lol.
    Yes , there may be better gauge/ammo to use, but at close range I am not going to want to get hit. I don't have any personal experience with buck shot, but as far as stopping power, I can tell you with absolute certainy that #7 shot from a 12 gauge will stop you, so I would think 3 36 cal pills at 1200 fps would do it's job. The 410 is a great home defense shotty for those of smaller size, or weaker, and I would take it at close quarters in pump version every day with 2 3/4 or 3 inch mags anyday over a handgun. The muzzle energy figures of 600 fpe is not mine, but , I think Federals.

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    The one thing we haven't mentioned, of course, is how difficult shotgun manipulation is while under stress.
    As I said I would do, I ran some drills last night and found that, to my dismay, a couple of times my hand went over the sling and prevented a fast rack.

    So shockwave 0, Defensive Carry 1. The sling is off and stored in the carry case. But to answer the question above, the shotgun is in a kind of holster close to the bed, and the main drill is pull it, rack it and point it. Not any harder than grabbing a pistol.

    Then again, I've got a selection of firearms (and all kinds of other stuff) around, and depending on the situation, might be more prudent to grab a handgun. It really depends.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Another major consideration is your use of the term stopping/killing. Big difference in the two. Stopping is always the primary concern with killing be incident to the stop. I'd be willing to bet even the 410 at close range will stop a human.

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Lots of references to bad information in this original post by 147 grain.

    Biggest is citing the totally bogus "International Wound Ballistics Association". That was never any sort of legitimate organization. And it has been many years now since the organization met its demise. While one can still find links on the Internet to their former website, clicking on them will just give you a message that the Domain name is available for purchase.

    FirearmsTactical.com is hardly any better. Just look at their personal defence ammunition page. It was written 12 years ago, back in 1998, and has not been updated since. They have another page where they produce some test data, but even that is from 1999. They have absolutely no data anywhere on Federal's industry leading HST Law Enforcement ammo. The web sight is owned and operated by a single man named Shawn Dodson. And that constitutes a real Institute? No way .......

    Now, Dodson did serve his country for 4 years in the Navy, and then another 4 years in the US Army. But his highest education is high school. No college education of any kind at all. And while he points out that he is now serving in law enforcement, when you look at his actual experience, his only experience is as a Reserve Police Officer for Bremerton. That means that he has only gone through a very basic reserve officers academy for training. And that he is just an unpaid volunteer with the department, only able to perform a limited set of duties.

    On his resume, he cites that he used to work as a consultant to the defunct and bogus International Wound Ballistics Association.

    So how qualified is he, to be taken as some kind of expert that is beyond reproach? Not much at all, in my book.

    Just because one can find information and data on the Internet, does not mean that it is either true or valid. These references are totally skewed and biased towards using bigger heavier projectiles, and having deep penetration.

    The fact is that one can get by very well with #4 Buckshot in a shotgun. The increased pattern density will have a most devastating effect on any living flesh that is hit. Look at the handgun ammo comments on that website, and you will see that they are also extremely biased towards slow heavy bullets that penetrate real deep.

    .
    Last edited by LanceORYGUN; December 5th, 2010 at 08:11 AM.

  11. #41
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    I don't have a dog in this fight because I don't own a .410. However, from across your typical living room of say 15 - 25 feet, I wouldn't want to get shot by a .410.

    Come to think of it, I wouldn't want to get shot with anything!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #42
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I totally agree, and was somewhat joking. But having actually shot two people with birdshot, I can tell you for a fact, it will get people out of your house.
    One of our neighbors down the street from my parent's home was accidentally shot with #6 shot by another hunter while pheasant hunting north of Sacramento. He spent quite a long time in the hospital. He lost his right eye, and came dangerously close to losing his left eye. Had quite a bit of damage to his right shoulder too, but nothing that could not be repaired.

    Heavier bird shot, like #2 or BB, will penetrate far more than #6. But #4 Buckshot has plenty of penetration for personal self defense.

    I personally would not want to shoot any shotgun indoors, though. The damage to your hearing could be significant. A handgun is the best tool for defense inside a home. Shotguns are just too big and bulky to effectively maneuvre and wield inside an average house or apartment.


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  13. #43
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    To illustrate how skewed and biased that Firearms Tactical website is, just look at these two tests on 9mm ammo that they reference that they did back in 1999.

    First, here is their preferred round, the 9mm Winchester 147gr Supreme SXT JHP. They loved this round because it penetrated anywhere from 16.6 to 18.7 inches in bare ballistic gelatin, and shot COMPLETELY THROUGH the block of gelatin when it was covered by a layer of Denim.




    But look at how lousy the expansion is on the above 147 gr bullets. They don't represent good bullet performance at all in my book.

    In comparison, here is their test of a 9mm 124gr +P Speer Gold Dot load:




    Far superior expansion with these Gold Dots. But since they did not penetrate as deep as the Winchester load, it was considered to be inferior!!


    .

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    To illustrate how skewed and biased that Firearms Tactical website is, just look at these two tests on 9mm ammo that they reference that they did back in 1999.

    First, here is their preferred round, the 9mm Winchester 147gr Supreme SXT JHP. They loved this round because it penetrated anywhere from 16.6 to 18.7 inches in bare ballistic gelatin, and shot COMPLETELY THROUGH the block of gelatin when it was covered by a layer of Denim.




    But look at how lousy the expansion is on the above 147 gr bullets. They don't represent good bullet performance at all in my book.

    In comparison, here is their test of a 9mm 124gr +P Speer Gold Dot load:




    Far superior expansion with these Gold Dots. But since they did not penetrate as deep as the Winchester load, it was considered to be inferior!!


    .
    I wonder if the Gold Dots would have penetrated deeper had they not expanded so much? I'm betting they would have.

    I like the larger, more jagged expansion myself, as long as penetration is around 10 - 12 inches. More opportunity to snag and rip open blood vessels causing greater hemorrhage with those splayed out petals on a heavily expanded jacket.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #45
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I like the larger, more jagged expansion myself, as long as penetration is around 10 - 12 inches. More opportunity to snag and rip open blood vessels causing greater hemorrhage with those splayed out petals on a heavily expanded jacket.
    In that case you might want to checkout Federal's HST ammo. Here is a 9mm 124 gr Federal HST bullet recovered after being fired from a +P load into a row of water jugs:






    Some folks are so fanatical about penetration that they consider that any load that fails to go 12 inches is a failure.

    That website is so dated that its test data is back from 1998 and 1999. So Federal HST loads are not even examined.


    .

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