Some Very Informative test Data with Smaller Buckshot Loads

Some Very Informative Test Data with Smaller Buckshot Loads

This is a discussion on Some Very Informative Test Data with Smaller Buckshot Loads within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I found a website that has done some testing of smaller sized buckshot ammo in ballistic gelatine, and the results pretty much have confirmed what ...

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Thread: Some Very Informative test Data with Smaller Buckshot Loads

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Some Very Informative test Data with Smaller Buckshot Loads

    I found a website that has done some testing of smaller sized buckshot ammo in ballistic gelatine, and the results pretty much have confirmed what I have felt all along: #4 Buckshot offers very good penetration. Even Hevishot's Dead Coyote load using .20 caliber T shot made out of a hard and heavy Tungsten Alloy gave decent penetration.

    You can view the data here for yourself on this web page:

    http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page484.htm

    The Federal #4 Buckshot load that he tested is the ammo that I have in my shotgun. And it penetrated from 12.5 to 13.3 inches deep at a range of 10 ft. That is more than adequate penetration.

    Even the Hevishot Dead Coyote ammo gave very deadly results at 10 ft, with the buckshot penetrating from 8 to 9.8 inches. And if you look at the photos, the size of the wound channels are simply massive. Far larger than what the most powerful magnum handguns can produce.

    So I am perfectly comfortable with #4 Buckshot, and see no need at all to increase to #1 Buck, much less 00 Buckshot. The more massive wound channels caused by the far denser patterns produced by these smaller buckshot are going to absolutely devastate any target.

    If you check further on the website, you will also see that he has recently done some additional testing with 20 gauge #4 Buckshot ammo, and was able to virtually get the same level of penetration with it too. So I would feel perfectly safe with a 20 gauge spewing 18 .24 caliber #4 Buckshot at a time too.

    Here is a link to the 20 gauge testing:

    http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page2841.htm



    And here is a photo of what one of the Hevishot Dead Coyote shells did to a ballistic gelatin block. Remember that each of the round balls in this photo is .20 caliber. For the first six inches of the penetration, there is easily a cylinder that is a full 3 inches wide for that entire length. That initial area alone works out to 42.5 cubic inches of totally destroyed tissue! For perspective, that is equal to 1.5 liquid pints!!





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    My experience with deer hunting is that smaller shot (0, #1-4B) is indeed effective at surprising range. I think far too much emphasis is placed on "nothing but 00." With a shotgun, I'm looking to cover as large an area and make as many wounds as I can, and the smaller shot will do just that.

    I consider a shotgun primarily for inside the house or maybe house to car distances, most less than 50-75 feet. While I have no doubt that #4 buck wouldn't penetrate my vehicle and drop the BG hiding behind it, my hope is to not penetrate my vehicle at all! If the BG is farther away than that, he's probably no threat, and the .30-06 will be more effective than even the 00.

    Almost anything from a shotgun at inside-the-house, room-length distance can and will be devastating. I've seen what a 1-1/8 oz load of #6 does at that range, and believe me--any fight would be over. If not, a cannon would not be effective on that superman BG.
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    As a LEO, perhaps the biggest advantage I see with the larger caliber (lower quantity) buck shot loads is......

    You are responsible for EVERY shot that leaves your barrel, it is much less likely (if you properly pattern your gun) to have misses. The more projectiles you release from the gun, the more you need to be SURE they will not hit an unintended target.
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    Ten feet is mighty close range... Even within a house, it seems you could easily double that distance. Add in clothes, intervening barriers (like arms), oblique angles, and so on, and I'm not convinced that 8" of penetration under OPTIMAL conditions is going to be sufficient under REALISTIC conditions.

    I've mentioned it before, but my own experience with #4 buck was less than comforting: at 25 yards (yes, I realize this is about the limit of typical HD/SD range), out of a 14"bbl open-choke Rem 870 (yes, I realize this is a shorter bbl than most will be running), #4 buck couldn't knock over the square steel plates used in IPSC (and other) ranges. At 10' against naked skin out of a longer barrel and a frontal shot to the upper torso - I'm pretty sure #4 will be decisive. I just don't trust that conditions will always allow for such a shot...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    OPFOR,

    It is no surprise at all toward your steel plate results with #4 Buck running a gun that is _cylinder bore_ (aka "open choke"), _at 25 yards_.

    Barrel length has little to nothing to do functionally with shot pattern and by that distance or knock down power (of a steel plate). So say ammunition and gun manufacturers as over the past 50+ yrs.
    It is all about the choke and to what degree of constriction is applied....Which by that directly increases functional range of the cloud AND in kind also contains the projectiles at a given distance to actually strike the target which in the case of knocking over a steel plate would be to retain kinetic energy en masse.
    Using that exact same gun with 00 would result in a difference simply because of physics; Each pellet weighs more and there are just 8 or 9 fired and thus more likely to spread _less_ at the same given distance.
    But the distance of 25 yards (75 feet!), as you noted, is well outside that of most any normal/average persons home never mind functional ability to claim self defense as within/among their home. Which in whole makes the point moot.

    ~~~

    Lance,

    I too have been saying for some time now that #4 _BUCK_ (not #4 birdshot) is a very good and functional if not even more appropriate HD use choice, as rather than 00 Buck. Especially for those who live in a residence/building that is occupied by others.
    Others being children or roommates at opposite walls as well as apartment/condo/townhouse and duplex type building livers.

    Oddly though and I just do not understand this...People very commonly think to compare and contrast two totally different extremes.
    Just yesterday I was watching a gunfu TV _entertainment_ show and they were doing an episode on HD.
    First they shot handguns through cloth covered chairs so as to 'simulate' a sofa/couch (!), which in itself was stuipd as a chair is clearly NOT a sofa or couch...Not that in function though there would have been any change in the end result. Handgun rounds whiz right through these things...They are NOT cover, just concealment.
    Then they took to shotguns and fired 00 Buck through one and then what do they do for comparison...Birdshot/target loads like one would shoot clays with. WHAT?!!
    On the surface that makes no sense at all. Lets compare an F350 to say hmm...A Honda Element, and see who can haul the most gear. I mens really it's just asinine to even do such a thing nevermind that it's been done by _everybody_.

    Rather why not compare apples to apples rather than grapes and sunflower seeds.
    Do double aught (00) against triple aught (000) against #4 _Buck_ which is commonly used by turkey hunters against #1 Buck.
    I have never once seen a gunfu entertainment show do this; Comparing apples to apples and apples to pears.
    Then always they remark at the end what anybody with a brain could have guessed never mind already know going in; Birdshot sucks against anything but hollow core interior doors and dry wall for penetration...And is passable toward stopping humans, stop as to not kill but to dissuade them from continuing further with same actions.
    Meanwhile people seem to have forgotten that a wide range of payload variety exists outside and beyond that of birdshot and dove loads, up to 00 Buck.
    Bizarre.

    In my HD loadout is a combo of 2 3/4" #4 Buck (one box) and ten shells (two boxes) of 2 3/4" rifled slug.
    This run out of my 14'" barrel _fixed Modified_ type constriction choke barrel which with #4 is good for 9" pie plate sized shot pattern to 30+ yds....Well beyond justifiable 'self defense' range as at or within my residence.
    I have the slug at hand in the event I need to stop something that is very durable/resilient such as a dog (head or chest shot) attacking one of my own.

    Additionally a month ago I bought one box of the new for 2009 Remington HD '2x4' iron/bronze/tungsten (not soft copper nor lead and heavier in mass than both) to evaluate.
    http://www.remington.com/products/am...nse-loads.aspx
    It's been sitting in my range kit untouched though as I've just not had the time to get to the range and do a proper like I'd like with it.

    ~~~

    Agreed very much with SigmanLuke toward projectile count and responsibility for each as fired.

    Which is another reason why for HD guns even as the industry norm has been cylinder bore, I personally feel that improved cylinder or better yet modified type choke is the better choice to control this AND it further allows for increased functional distance as fired too (especially so modified rather than improved)....Which once more at the end of the day is what we want for HD; Concentrated precise application of all pellets into a given shot/cloud radius...As rather than a spread the size of our PC screen (!) toward a man sized target at combat distances out to 20 yds. (60 feet!).

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Almost anything from a shotgun at inside-the-house, room-length distance can and will be devastating. I've seen what a 1-1/8 oz load of #6 does at that range, and believe me--any fight would be over. If not, a cannon would not be effective on that superman BG.
    My social interaction with a rabid coyote was an eye-opener... two rounds of 1-1/8 oz #4 in his chest barely got his attention (20 ga, maybe 7-10 yards). A third and gratuitous 4th shot to the head finally put him down.

    When the 20 was the lone shotgun in the house, after that event #4 buck was on hand for defensive purposes.
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    And we're off and running....
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    My social interaction with a rabid coyote was an eye-opener... two rounds of 1-1/8 oz #4 in his chest barely got his attention (20 ga, maybe 7-10 yards). A third and gratuitous 4th shot to the head finally put him down.

    When the 20 was the lone shotgun in the house, after that event #4 buck was on hand for defensive purposes.
    I've read and heard direct/first person tale of sooo many people having limited to zero success using handguns (regardless of caliber) and shotguns from birdshot even up to 12GA against specifically canines.
    That now my position is if it's an animal of any sort 'Gone Wild', then I am not going to fool around dancing with it and making multiple hope this works OOPS try again darn I missed the _vitals_ but maybe in time it'll bleed out type shots.

    One shot...One kill...One ounce, of lead hollowpoint slug to the head, spine or chest cavity.

    I don't see the point in betting on marginal when maximal is readily available and common man functional.
    Besides if my kids were in danger of being harmed by say an off the ranch type mad dog canine then the last thing I want to be doing is experimenting with maybe this will work type ammo.
    I'd want stoppage like right now immediate.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    One shot...One kill...One ounce, of lead hollowpoint slug to the head, spine or chest cavity.
    I agree. I was out bird hunting on the CT farm where I had privileges when this coyote starting coming toward me across a cornfield at a deliberate pace. My 20 was loaded with 7-1/2s backed up with magnum 6s, but I always carried a few magnum 4s with me "in case." I had time to load the 4s... and the results were telling. After that event, my "what if" rounds stepped up to slugs. Technically not legal to have 'em in the gun when hunting small game in CT, but my friendly Conservation Officer advised after the fact that COs wouldn't bust anyone for taking out a rabid animal with extra-legal loads.
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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    #1 buckshot - hard to find, but seems to be worth it

    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...N%20AMMUNITION

    Quote-

    The single biggest mistake people make is to assume that the power of the shotgun is such that it negates having to select proper ammo. Through no experience or research they might come to the conclusion that birdshot is a perfectly acceptable choice for self defense? Why? Because the "feel" it's adequate for the most part.

    Nothing is further from the truth. Once again, the shotgun ammunition needs to perform the same function as rifle and pistol ammo, which is to penetrate about 12" into ballistic gelatin. Fragmentation/expansion are usually not an issue in shotgun ammo, so that factor can be ignored for the most part.

    For an excellent article which explains it better than I could, please read "Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition on firearmstactical.com.

    The summary from that article states:

    Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 -inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

    In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

    For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 -inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 -inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

    Second best choice is Winchester's 2 -inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.


    My Rem 870 wears a 20 inch barrel with rifle sights in the HD role, with a fixed improved choke. 4 shells of #1 buck in the tube, another 6 on the carrier. Works for me. If I ever needed to shoot at longer range, that's what the Mini 14 is for...
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmanluke View Post
    As a LEO, perhaps the biggest advantage I see with the larger caliber (lower quantity) buck shot loads is......

    You are responsible for EVERY shot that leaves your barrel, it is much less likely (if you properly pattern your gun) to have misses. The more projectiles you release from the gun, the more you need to be SURE they will not hit an unintended target.
    Well, #4 Buckshot has the clear advantage in this regard, as it has both less penetration, and far less energy downrange. The larger 00 buckshot is going to be able to go through walls and other barriers at ranges where #4 Buck will not.

    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    #1 buckshot - hard to find, but seems to be worth it

    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...N%20AMMUNITION

    For Military or Police applications, I would agree that #1 Buckshot would be ideal.

    But for civilian defensive applications, I think #4 definitely has the edge.

    I don't know why folks continue to post info from that lame firearmstactical.com website, as I have already exposed them as not having any real credibility previously in an earlier discussion here:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...=1#post1820109

    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I've mentioned it before, but my own experience with #4 buck was less than comforting: at 25 yards (yes, I realize this is about the limit of typical HD/SD range), out of a 14"bbl open-choke Rem 870 (yes, I realize this is a shorter bbl than most will be running), #4 buck couldn't knock over the square steel plates used in IPSC (and other) ranges.
    Well, as Janq mentioned, that is more a choke issue than anything else. If one wants an effective pattern at longer ranges like that with #4 Buck, you can't stick with a fully open cylinder that has no choke.

    I have an extended stainless steel LIGHT MODIFIED choke tube in my FN SLP. It is halfway in constriction between a modified choke and improved cylinder.

    It patterns very well at 25 yards.

    It is a bit of a monster of a shotgun, but its recoil is light, and I keep it loaded with 306 #4 Buckshot inside its 9 shells. A friend timed me once at the range, and I was able to fire all nine shells in 5.8 seconds. That computes to a 3,165 RPM firing rate for the #4 Buckshot.



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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    Well, #4 Buckshot has the clear advantage
    Perhaps an advantage in MISSES but definitely NOT in hits.

    it has both less penetration, and far less energy downrange.
    It also has less penetration and energy at the point of impact with your BG, thus making it less effective.

    The larger 00 buckshot is going to be able to go through walls and other barriers at ranges where #4 Buck will not.
    .
    Agreed, it's also going to do more damage to the intended target, and since it's easier to NOT MISS with, I see no reason to choose a round that makes misses more likely.
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