Kel Tec is planning a new shotgun design. The KSG. - Page 4

Kel Tec is planning a new shotgun design. The KSG.

This is a discussion on Kel Tec is planning a new shotgun design. The KSG. within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Lance the solution for that condition present is three fold, and I _strongly_ suggest it to my own students whether they go rolly eyes on ...

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Thread: Kel Tec is planning a new shotgun design. The KSG.

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Lance the solution for that condition present is three fold, and I _strongly_ suggest it to my own students whether they go rolly eyes on me or not:

    * ALWAYS wear hearing protection when shooting _ANY_ firearm of any sort.
    * ALWAYS wear hearing protection when hunting (!). [Insert rolly eyes]
    I wear electronic ear-pro when hunting. It both boosts my hearing of low level sounds while also cutting into cut out high Db sounds such as my gun going off in front of me.
    Traditional type hunters (I am very much non-traditional) often respond to the negative there and will cite garbage like 'auditory occlusion' (I don't remember hearing the sound so therefore no sound nor sound pressure was made...From my shotgun/rifle/pistol! Uh huh, yeah...Right.) . Meanwhile ask their wives about their hearing...Or ask an elder aged lifelong hunter about deafness, as they'll be able to talk that chapter and verse. : (
    * At indoor ranges ALWAYS double ear! Properly inserted and seated inner ear protection _layered_ by a secondary of good quality high NRR rating outer ear muffs that also are fitted properly (no ear/head to muff seal leaks). Indoor range amplify the Dbof shots fired even as one might be alone on the line. Never mind multiple shooters.

    I was at the range tonight training and as per my norm I ran double layered ear pro:
    Inner Ear - Surefire 'Sonic Defenders Plus' (EP4) with the sound channel plugged as well
    Outer Ear - Peltor 6S electronic ear muffs with volume set to off (no students/instructors to monitor).

    This works very well.
    Also I am very selective about my hearing in that if someone says hey lets go shooting and I do not have proper level of ear pro to my own satisfaction, then I will not go.
    I know too many other shooters and hunters who are darn near deaf in their 50s and 60s from simply not choosing to wear ear pro (civilian life) or didn't have access to same (military).

    Now days with modern tech offerings there is no good reason for those with out loss to suffer what you do current.
    Eye protection and ear protection should be deemed by shooters of all sort to be mandatory.

    The dude in your pic selection wearing both, including the exact same Peltor earpro that I have been running for 12 yrs. now to great net result.
    Only i wear mine with the headset mic. facing rearward rather than frontal.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing


  2. #47
    Member Array Foo909's Avatar
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    If only their firearms didn't look like they were made of Lego blocks.

  3. #48
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    I have significant hearing loss from more than 30 years of siren damage and working in high ambient noise environments. I have significant tinnitus as well as mid frequency hearing loss. I have a hard time following some face to face conversations when other people are talking in the background or a television is on. So, I know about hearing loss.

    However, when shooting I have always used quality hearing protection. And in the last 10 plus years, I wear double protection whether indoors or out. I use quality expanding foam plugs rated at 34 dB reduction as well as a pair of muffs rated to 22 dB or 27 dB reduction. The muffs aren't the top of the line muffs, but I have 3 pair so friends I shoot with will have no excuse to shoot without. I also buy the expanding foam plugs in 100 pair bulk lots. I keep them all in my Midway Competition Range Bag.

    I won't go shooting with other who do not have hearing protection so I always bring plenty for others.

    One day I would like a nice electronic muffs like Janq so I can hear range commands better at the classes I attend, but for now, I get by with what I have.

    Also because I buy foam plugs in bulk lots, I make sure I always have several sets in all my vehicles, I have them in all my gear bags, my bug out bags and my 1st aid kits.

    I also keep a couple pair in my uniform pockets at work for times when we air evac patients or if I'm working in a high noise environment. I wish I had done that early on in my career, but these days, I protect what I have left.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Ditto Bark'n...I keep multiples of foam earpro in my range kit to give to others, as well as a backup set of outer ear muffs when shooting shotgun or rifle with others.
    I too always choose for myself to double ear indoor or out. That is my default. Only exception being when hunting.
    It's funny how often people will outright refuse ear-pro or state that the 'sound' doesn't bother them...Not realizing that not being bothered (wincing) doesn't mean there is no damage occurring.

    As to the Peltor 6S you can now get them online for as little as $47.

    Over the head band
    Behind the head band

    I'd paid close to $80 for mine back in 1999 when they first came out.
    That's roughly $8/yr in hearing protection insurance. Common man affordable. : )

    Look into the SureFire 'EarPro' Sonic Defenders line; I think you might find this product to be quite interesting and multi-function useful per your career.
    http://www.surefire.com/EarProProducts

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    As to the Peltor 6S you can now get them online for as little as $47.

    Over the head band
    Behind the head band

    I'd paid close to $80 for mine back in 1999 when they first came out.
    That's roughly $8/yr in hearing protection insurance. Common man affordable. : )

    Look into the SureFire 'EarPro' Sonic Defenders line; I think you might find this product to be quite interesting and multi-function useful per your career.
    http://www.surefire.com/EarProProducts

    - Janq
    Hey buddy, Thanks for the heads up on those Peltor 6S!

    And thanks for the hyperlinks!

    Those Sonic Defenders are way nice! SureFire is really on the cutting edge regarding their entire product line. They aren't just flashlights anymore!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  6. #51
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Lance the solution for that condition present is three fold
    Well, I grew up shooting in the dark ages, shortly after the invention of gunpowder. My Dad sadly did not advise me to protect myself, or himself either.

    As I got older I eventually learned the importance of hearing protection. But it was too late. The damage was already done.

    It actually did not start to show up until I reached my late 40's. And by that time I had been wearing good protection for many years. My doctor explained to me that can indeed happen. Damage done early in one's life does not always show up immediately, and can often crop up decades later, after one ages.

    In any event, there is no good reason at all to place a shotgun muzzle this close to your head. Going back to physics, detonation waves tend to dissipate relatively quickly with distance. So the closer the detonation is to you, the much more intense it's shock wave will be. Just the turning of my head to sight down my barrel, and thus turn my left ear forward, was enough to make a huge difference, and cause it to be damaged. While my right ear, which was always turned away from the muzzle, never suffered any damage.

    In any event, a person's hearing is way, way too important for them to risk it on such a flawed shotgun design like this one.

    .

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    In any event, a person's hearing is way, way too important for them to risk it on such a flawed shotgun design like this one.
    I wouldn't say that just because it is a bullpup design it is a flawed design. It is a "special purpose" built shotgun and it is not going to be for everyone.

    Not everyone is going to have a need for such a short compact weapon. However there are plenty others who do have need for such weapons. Special operators of military and law enforcement venues. Personal protection details and many others who will likely find themselves in extreme close combat situations or need extremely compact packages so as not to look like they are transporting a long gun.

    Now a whole lot of people will probably get it more because of the "cool" factor as opposed to a true "need" factor. Maybe, myself included. However it shouldn't be considered a "flawed" weapon design just because the muzzle is in a closer proximity to the shooters head.

    They've been making bullpup weapons in high powered rifle calibers for a long time now, and those too are weapons you don't want to be standing next to when they go boom. If you don't like them, you certainly don't have to buy one. But it's hard to say it's a flawed design.

    I'm sure there are a lot of Audiologists out there would like nothing better than to ban all firearms... "For the sake of saving everyone's hearing." Just like there are a lot of Ophthalmologists who would like to ban bottle rockets. I worked on a kid in the ER with one of our eye surgeons who got hit in the eye with a bottle rocket. It was pretty gruesome injury and the kid ended up losing the eye the next day. The eye surgeon was all about banning bottle rockets. I know fire chiefs who say the same thing because bottle rockets set a lot of roofs on fire and cause a lot of people to lose their homes. However, the bottle rocket isn't a flawed design either. They work just fine and as designed. It's the poor application of it which causes the problem.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #53
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    It's awesome and I want one really badly. I was planning on buying a different stock and barrel for my remmy 870 but I am holding off now.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

  9. #54
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    If it works well it could be a great shotgun.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I hear ya Lance...pun intended...And yes the closer the noise source is to ones head the both more intense the sound and by that potential damage.
    As well yep traditionally nobody wore hearing protection when shooting,it was thought that folk should just 'man up' and 'get used to it'. Yeah right. : (

    And then again add in the 'auditory occlusion' baloney effect too along with general lack of understanding toward _basic_ science and BOOM BAMM.....Huh what you say was the common result.
    Still to this day relatively young folk, my age (40) and younger, continue to adhere to these dark age views. I was out turkey hunting in Nov. and a dude among our party noted me put on my Peltors as we entered the field. He went on about you won't need those you won't even "hear the shot" (as if this was my first day ever in the field!). Uh huh....Reeally. Tell that to Mr. 12GA and explain to him how turkey loads have this new built in 'silent' powder now days. I'd kept my ears on and; "Thank you kindly for the advisory." was my reply as I kept on steppin' without breaking stride.

    With this product or even with the 34" barrel 'goose gun' I was using that day in the field toward turkey, wearing of quality high NRR hearing protection should be mandatory.
    For modern folk in modern times; A no brainer even.
    To that end barrel length matters not be it shotguns or carbines and SBRs which are very very loud, even when fired outdoors!

    Your story as told should be a lesson to all to learn, know and follow my relatively new school rules as posted.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I grew up around jets,served in the USAF and hunted without hearing protection,last hearing test I had showed that I had hearing loss in the range of children and women,IOW I have a good reason when my wife asks me to do something and I act like i don't hear her
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  12. #57
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    I regularly shoot a SBS (14"bbl) running 00 Buck and slugs. I always wear ear pro. No issues.

    In Iraq, I was running a 10.5" upper on my M4 a good deal of the time. I guarantee that it is much louder than this shotgun. I wore ear pro. No issues.

    Back when I was an M60 gunner, I very often DIDN'T wear ear pro. Long barrel, so no issues, right? Of course not. Permanent damage.

    Calling this a "design flaw" is just plain silly. Wear ear pro. No issues.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  13. #58
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I wouldn't say that just because it is a bullpup design it is a flawed design. It is a "special purpose" built shotgun and it is not going to be for everyone.
    Certainly not for anyone who cares about their hearing.

    Of course, not everyone has bird hunted throughout their life like I have done. Nor has everyone been involved in target sports like trap shooting and sporting clays as I have, either. A person would never use this shotgun for any of those purposes. So I suppose if one owned it, but did not shoot it very much, they could be OK.

    Still, it is a stupid design that shooters are not going to enjoy shooting, due to the intense muzzle blast being so much closer to their face. It will most definitely be a commercial failure. I'm confident that the majority of people that buy it will end up eventually regretting the purchase.

    .

  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Calling this a "design flaw" is just plain silly. Wear ear pro. No issues.
    So you actually believe that ear protection is absolute, and provides 100% protection no matter what the circumstances?

    That is not at all true. All ear protection has its limits. That is why they all have different NNR ratings on them.

    I seriously doubt that you have any significant permanent hearing damage. For if you did, you would not advocate any shotgun like this one that increases the risk of receiving such damage. For you would not want any others to unnecessarily risk ending up having to also suffer.

    .

  15. #60
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    Say what you want...I've already got a standing order in at my local fun store. When I walked in yesterday they were already on the phone with their Kel Tec distro trying to pull as much info as possible out of them. 50 people must have walked into the store, looked at the picture and to a man, everyone of them said "Oh I have got to have one"
    My SBR is shorter, louder and with my earpros it isn't a issue. This isn't a trap/skeet/hunting shotgun. It's a 14 round home defense shotgun.
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

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