This is a discussion on HD Lever Gun input - please within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I like lever guns and I live in a semi-rural place. I plan on using a couple of lever guns instead on my AR's for ...
I like lever guns and I live in a semi-rural place. I plan on using a couple of lever guns instead on my AR's for HD. I want the increase in penitration and the big / heavy bullet hit factor. Plus I am comfortable using them with over 45 years of practice with levers. I have a Win AE 30-30 with XS ghost ring and front sight for the bedroom backup and a Marlin 1895 Trapper 45-70 with fiber optics for my sitting room backup. I need suggestions of a good method to attach lights to these guns. The only idea I have is black tape and some cardboard to center the beams. Any ideas?? Also the butt stock elastic shell holders slide around. Any ideas on anchoring them?
Waaaay back in the day I knew a guy who wanted with a scoped 30-30. The scope was mounted the the end of the barrel and he used a handgun scope for the extended eye relief. You may be able to adapt some scope rings similarly to hold a light.
Ummm... are you considering using these for defense inside your house?
Blast from a 5.56 inside a room is already pretty intense, but from either the .30-30 or .45/70 I think you'd probably deafen people three rooms over (including yourself). How about a pistol-caliber lever gun, like .357, .44 or .45?
On the other hand, if your intended use is defense of your perimeter, then the white light you mount needs to be pretty powerful to illuminate a threat more than about 15 yards away. Attached photo shows a 110 lumen white light with target at just 25 yards... and the target has a light-colored border so it's lighting up better than, say, a BG in dark clothing.
To mount the light reliably, I think you're going to have to get crafty. I would look at some of the aftermarket mounts for tactical shotguns (not the forearm-integrated mounts) and see how you could modify them. Black tape and cardboard? Far too flimsy. You'd be better off with a hand-held light in your support hand.
I think a long gun is pretty bad for home defense. It is easy to disarm someone welding one, and the ability to use the non shooting hand to do things like open doors, talk on the phone, ect are pretty much negated. A handgun is easier to control, hold onto in a struggle and allows more mobility.
If you insist on a long gun despite this knowledge, I would go with a 357 loaded with 38 spl or a 44 with 44 spl loads . Smitty pointed out an important factor; certain hearing loss.
I like lever guns and I live in a semi-rural place. I plan on using a couple of lever guns instead on my AR's for HD. I want the increase in penitration and the big / heavy bullet hit factor. Plus I am comfortable using them with over 45 years of practice with levers. I have a Win AE 30-30 with XS ghost ring and front sight for the bedroom backup and a Marlin 1895 Trapper 45-70 with fiber optics for my sitting room backup. I need suggestions of a good method to attach lights to these guns. The only idea I have is black tape and some cardboard to center the beams. Any ideas?? Also the butt stock elastic shell holders slide around. Any ideas on anchoring them?
I shoot lever-guns regularly (30-30, 357, 45lc, 45-70). While I am all for using one for HD (mine is a 45lc carbine), the 45-70 is definitely overkill IMO.
The 30-30 is well suited to perimeter defense and varmint control. For inside the home either would be deafening when fired and most likely cause the shooter to be momentarily confused. The other problem is over-penetration which may or may not be a concern in your case.
I don't have a light mounted to any of my lever-guns. What I have learned to do is use my support hand with the light and rest the barrel on my wrist. This will work with almost any long-gun with a little practice.
I've seen something a bit more simple, at Cabela's, but I cannot find it... It was a simple 1" flashlight clamp that clamped onto the magazine tube of a lever-action rifle.
I would really like to see your 94AE with the Ghost Rings on it. Maybe you could give a bit of info on the installation, etc.
"A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source
I think a long gun is pretty bad for home defense. It is easy to disarm someone welding one, and the ability to use the non shooting hand to do things like open doors, talk on the phone, ect are pretty much negated. A handgun is easier to control, hold onto in a struggle and allows more mobility.
If you insist on a long gun despite this knowledge, I would go with a 357 loaded with 38 spl or a 44 with 44 spl loads . Smitty pointed out an important factor; certain hearing loss.
I have to agree - moving inside the home = handgun. Secured inside safe room = shotgun (I suppose firing it indoors would hurt the ears, but if the BG(s) is trying to get into the room, it beats the alternative).
I just yesterday got a Marlin 336 in .30-30 with a scope for perimeter duty, to augment my Mini 14. I may add a butt cuff to hold more ammo. I have one for my shotgun (Rem 870) and it has an elastic band that goes around the rear of the butt - stays in place pretty well under recoil. No plans to mount a light.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
I think a long gun is pretty bad for home defense. It is easy to disarm someone welding one, and the ability to use the non shooting hand to do things like open doors, talk on the phone, ect are pretty much negated. A handgun is easier to control, hold onto in a struggle and allows more mobility.
I am going to respectfully disagree with you on that point. Its more of a training issue. If someone doesn't know what they are doing inside a structure with a pistol, and go around with it in a modified weaver stance, putting the weapon past thresholds and the like instead of pieing it off, then it is just as easy to disarm them. If you stick your pistol and arms through a doorway before you clear the corner next to it, I'm gonna hit you in the elbow so it goes the wrong way, and take your gun. If you do it with a rifle with a properly used one point of three point sling, then I am not going to be able to shoot you with your own weapon as easily. I can do almost everything I need to with my M-4gery or shotgun one handed (the main exceptions I think of are reloading and clearing malfunctions, which you need two hands for a handgun too), while properly using a sling. I can talk on a phone/radio, open doors, drag a wounded buddy to safety, all while maintaining a firing position with a long gun.
Like I said though, it is a training thing. I know you have the training and experience as well, I just disagree with you. With all that being said, I am still not going to clear a structure by myself, unless I have absolutely no choice, no matter what weapons system I have.
Moving back on topic, I have no issues with lever guns as HD weapons, but I think a .45-70 might be a little bit excessive. Something in .38/357, or .44, or .45lc would be a lot more appropriate for defense inside the home, IMHO.
The key is knowing what you are doing vs. not. The vast majority of people (no training or wrong training) dont know what they are doing. It doesnt matter if they want to admit it or not.
I agree on sticking with the pistol calibers for HD.
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel 163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB
Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA
.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB
OD, I'm not against the .45-70 because of hearing issues. I think that there are better choices for HD, that are more controllable, and have less chance of over penetrating the target.
Shooting a firearm indoors without ear pro is going to hurt your ears, I know.
That wasn't posted for anyone in particular, actually hadn't gotten to your post, it's just to show there isn't much difference in decibel levels between most of them.
Thanks for the suggestions on calibers. There is a tool for every job. Basic bedroom and sitting room defense is a G21SF's with Insight M3 lights, Rem 870 Tacticals with Surefire built in front light for each room plus whatever carry guns and lights on my person. There is also a coach gun under the desk. The 5.56 is too light a round to go thru walls if I need to shoot thru cover. Years of training with some very qualified instructors, years of competition (current IDPA, 3 Gun and USPSA) and years of caliber testing. I've tried everything and I would go with 2 lever 45-70's but I only have one so the Win A/Ewith 20" bl is the next choice. The .35 Rem's barrel is too long for what I want and .308 BLR is too pretty to have the intimidation factor (plus it's scoped). Nothing says "GO AWAY" better that a .45 (Clint Smith). You may consider it over kill but the past 63 years have taught me different. Remember it's a rural area and only me, the Wife and the cat (first lines of defense - they are both tougher than I am). I think I solved the issue with bike inner tube strips and a hand carved wood spacer to keep the lights in-line with the bores. The mock up survived 20 rounds of 45-70 today. I will look into some of the above suggestions. There may be more robust.
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Originally Posted by paul45
