Gee thanks, now I have one MORE thing to try tomorrow.
Seriously though, thanks for that. I'm always glad to see things clearly demonstrated.
This is a discussion on Mossberg 'Chamberd Round Swap' Instructional by Janq within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; This is an educational and instructional video as in response to the Magpul 'Art of the Shotgun' video where the instructors, Haley & Costa, indicate ...
This is an educational and instructional video as in response to the Magpul 'Art of the Shotgun' video where the instructors, Haley & Costa, indicate that doing an emergency shell swap/chambered round swap is not possible when using a Mossberg so as to retain the next round in the magazine.
In their instructional DVD they ran into problems with this only because the two students in that course who brought Mossbergs were not aware of their guns operating system, and by that how to manipulate it.
As well the instructors, Haley & Costa, themselves not being aware of the Mossberg operating system choose to indicate to their students and those watching ther instructional video that the Mossberg system is inadequate in this area.
This as fact though is not a truth.
I will clearly demonstrate and instruct same through this video using a Mossberg 590 A1 type receiver and operating system shotgun.
Gee thanks, now I have one MORE thing to try tomorrow.
Seriously though, thanks for that. I'm always glad to see things clearly demonstrated.
There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH
...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper
There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm
Thanks for the video Janq, awesome job. I've seen um doing that on the shows on the OUT channel, but as you stated none of um were mossbergs. It seems that the key would be for the MB to be laid on its side so the finger can extract the round without it falling out. I'm gonna try it on my next range visit. I'm curious, if instead of removing the round you could just fired it and then rack the action extracting the spent shell, could you not insert the selected round by hand at that point or would the elevator jam up? I would try it with mine, but I don't have any dummy rounds to practice with.
I like your 590 A1 and the way you have it set up. I have the plain jane 500 persuader and plan to add some extras in the next few months, but not sure if I just want to get another one to trick out with all the bells. Again great job and very helpful video, thanks for taking the time to put it together.
Pain is the best teacher,but nobody wants to go to his class.
When the past smothers the present, there is only desperation. When the future absorbs the present, life stands still. In either case a decision must be made because you only live now and you are only what you are now.
Nice video, especially since I have a Mossberg. Thanks for sharing.
"Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt
Great video. Another trick I learned was how to manipulate the shell stop at the front of the magazine, allowing for extraction and replacement of stored rounds.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
Thanks for that video. I've had people telling me that I shouldn't get a Mossberg because the MagPul guys said it can't swap chambered rounds.
Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"
Below is a constructive criticism from one of my own favorite instructors and who has been a mentor in my training as a student instructor:Note: As an FYI I am a former student of Rayburn among a handful of courses including 'Combat Shotgun'Originally Posted by Mike Rayburn, Rayburn Law Enforcement Training
In response I'd actually made three versions of this effort.
The first being with the gun mounted/shouldered as by my norm.
Problem was the mini DV cam I have was worn on my head so that it showed a first person view. All it showed was the top of the gun and my hands moving around.
My wifes handheld DV cam which I'd started to use had low batt. power and so I could not shot this process as shouldered from a third person view (the batt. died midway).
So I was left with my third try being what you see here, wearing my head mounted mini-DV cam and with the gun off shoulder so that the viewer could very clearly see the mechanics of this operation AND that I was not cheating/using shell swap trickery (how it appeared in the first video upon watching).
As well consider my focus here is only toward the slide/pump action Mossberg family; 500 and 590.
The Magpul video commentary I am responding to here was focused only on the pump/slide action, not any Mossy autoloader receiver...Which of course has a completely different manual of arms same as a Remy 1100 autoloader is different than an 870 pump.
Also, my FIL helped me workout the post production on this as normally I just work from the raw source.
In doing so here the raw video volume was VERY high. I have no means to control that on the mini-DV cam device so my FIL was like we can reduce it using software.
Problem is though that in doing so the result is my voice now sounds weird and not natural/normal. Not a big deal but to me listening to it the audio is odd.
When I'd received my copy of the Magpul shotgun instructional DVD right from chapter one it was obvious to me as a Mossberg owner and operator that neither of the two students; Magpul employee and the deputy sheriff, were familiar with the guns specific manual of arms.
Yes they knew how to toggle triggers and work the pump/slide...But that was about where it began and ended for them.
No disrespect intended toward either of those students as they were there in a course to learn more about their systems of choice.
But what bothered me is as the instruction moves along and when the deputy begins to falter with is gun at the point in instruction where load swap becomes central, I was sitting there on my couch watching this thinking; 'See this is what happens when you don't train _well_ with your gear to become intimately familiar with it and how to make it run.'
This also is why I personally secure ammunition facsimiles ('dummy rounds') for every chambering of gun I either own or borrow (.45-70) so that in the safety and comfort of my home I can actively train with the _tool_ to familiarize myself with it fully without endangering myself or others at a range by fumbling with the tool and LIVE ammo...Nor to cause myself harm under pressure should I actually have need to make use of the firearm as a tool be it in the field or on the street.
I've got dummy ammo for everything from .22LR and 5.56 on up to 12GA and .45-70. Having as much IMHO is key to training focus overall. These things are cheap and will take a handler/operator far.
Other item that surprised me was how quickly and easily Haley & Costas were to write off the students tool of choice when he as a student clearly unfamiliar with the tool was unable to perform and keep up in class, at the moment.
Now again this is not a criticism but rather an observation putting on my hat as a perpetual student.
As a student I would expect my instructor under such circumstance to either know more about my 'weapon system' than me; The Mossberg 500/590 are ubiquitous among law enforcement users as well as pre-Benelli military users, never mind civilian ownership of same receiver & action Mossy 500s.
These are not obscure nor unusual/oddball systems. They just aren't Remington 870 is all, nor Benelli.
If the two of them are not intimately experienced with Mossberg then as a student I would expect two things to occur:
1) Just tell me straight up that as an instructor and operator your background is not a strong point toward Mossberg.
This I would understand and respect, having no problem there. You run largely Remington and Benelli by personal choice or past agency tool assignment, fine.
But do not tell me that my own personally selected and/or agency assigned tool is non-functional or less than optimally functional, simply because I as a student and you as the instructor(s) are not specifically familiar with the tools operating system....AND...That it does not operate like what you are most comfortable & familiar with; Remington and Benelli.
2) This course was a two day affair. So during the off video down time ask to borrow the students tool, study it, familiarize ones self with it's operating system...And come back with a field analysis so as to provide the student information to bring him back up in function to that of the other students...As rather than allow him concessions to be a laggard simply by manner of the tool not being exactly like everyone elses in function.
That neither the instructors NOR the students thought to do this on their own was a disappointment.
It took me literally :60s to functionally duplicate what Costas demonstrated toward this specific gun handling method as via his Remington 870. It was easy, IF you just took a minute to analyze the problem and in hand handle the Mossberg to note oh this ELEVATOR works mechanically different than the Remington LIFTER even as the net result is ultimately same.
I knew then that as popular as the Magpul videos are that folk watching this Shotgun version would immediately think okay Mossberg is gonna get me killed and/or is not as flebile a system as Remington and Benelli, because Haley & Costas AND that student wearing a cop uniform couldn't figure out how to swap shells like on an 870.
On my couch I sat there and though oh geez my own students will be making such comments future and I know for fact this is not actually a problem at all.
So with that I determined myself to make a video showing it rather than type it up as text, which would be my first thought.
The rest is what we have here.
I've had fortune to have a lot of time running both of these operating systems; Remington 870 and Mossy 590A1 (functionally & dimensionally exact same as a civilian market 500 or 590).
What I've found from experience as both a student and as an instructor is that a whole bunch of folks have some degree of shotgun experience but most often to a singular make and even model...AND their experience to I'd say the 90th percentile is pretty much limited in knowledge set and use exclusively to chambering rounds, pulling the trigger and cycling the slide. End period.
Go outside and beyond that and it's a blank faced vacuum of operating knowledge and experience.
I'm personally big on understanding my tool as to how it works and doesn't work.
As well I just happen to be by nature mechanical minded which doesn't hurt.
I have found real world under use, and I shoot a fair amount of shotgun, that neither operating system is better than the other.
Functionally they are just about equal.
As to this specific action though hands down the Mossberg system is easier, quicker and less step intensive than the Remington. It's just different is all.
I would, and do, encourage anyone who has a firearm as a tool that they depend on to work be it for hunting, HD/SD, sport/competition or what have you to _invest_ the time in learning your tool.
Or get caught flat footed as the two students, and both instructors, did as within this not exactly obscure and low viewership instructional/training video did. : |
The only reason the gun is on it's side is so that the mini-DV cam I'd had on my head could 'view' the specific actions that my hands were doing.
Real world in the field I'd be doing all of this with the gun shouldered/mounted rather than as down low...And the amount/degree of cant that I give the gun is very much exaggerated again for the sake of viewing angle to the camera.
This can be done in the literal dark (I did it in my bathroom) but with no light it's impossible to show on video.
With a little practice (less than an hour on the outside) _anybody_ could do and master this.
I would though strongly suggest investment in dummy rounds as otherwise using live rounds is a fools folly, as you and I both know.
To your second question the answer is no; Be the shell fired or not.
Take note at the end of my video where I chamber and drop the hammer on a shell then fully eject that shell, now effectively being a spent shell.
Reason is because if you stroke the forearm/slide _fully_ rearward both the ejector activates tossing the shell outward AND the shell holder at the magazine tube is deactivated thus automatically allowing a new shell to enter into the elevator.
Key here for this function is to stroke the slide rearward but to STOP just prior to activation of the ejector AND the elevator releasing the lowering of the elevator deactivating the shell holder.
This is complex to describe in text but simple simon to understand IF you actually look at the mechanics of how a Mossy pump works and/or have the gun in hand and by eye study the actions cycle.
The rest is just developing muscle memory to know okay at this point I stop as rather than a hard fully rearward stroke. As well there is a tactile indicator of same as when the shells base begins to touch the ejector. Hit the ejector and continue rearward another 1/4" and the shell she goes flying.
Stop though then insert a finger (this works with a gloved hand too, I've tested it) and pop out the shells face as unfired (hence the point of the drill) and by finger force alone grip the top/face of the shell pulling it out.
After that all thats left to do is insert manually the new shell into the now partially dropped but _empty_ elevator dropping it in through the ejection port as also demonstrated, and to close the action.
Again a lot of words to describe what in actuality gun in hand is darn easy and not difficult to figure out...When not under real time stress of do or die/course fail.
Your Mossy 500 is _functional_.
The 500 action and receiver is the _exact_ same as that of a 590 (civilian) or 590 A1 (military & law enforcement markets).
Of course my gun is an SBS too...But that is not an expense that one has to suffer, to be functional.
In my thread about this gun from roughly 3 months ago I'd posted a full detail of it's build including a parts list.
Run a search as it should come up in this sub-area.
The only change from then is that I've now got mounted a white light as it took some time for the specific mounting part I wanted to come in.
Command Arms Accessories
Five Position Flashlight/Laser Mount ~ Screw mount to rail (Picatinny)
SKU #: UFH3
NightOps (now owned by Blackhawk) 'Gladius' 3-way weapons mountable light
I plan to make a video on the gun as configured current toward HD.
I have one final part on order, a mount from Weaver, that is to support it's on the fly configuration change from HD to field gun use swapping out the white light to that of an offside 45 degree cant 3x optic for field game identification.
My gun is by my design and intent a 'Multi-Use' tool but I choose to not follow convention for the sake of being conventional, or unconventional.
Rather I wanted a tool that if I myself could start with clean sheet of paper to kill three birds with one stone (deer & turkey hunting as well as HD/combat use) what would I do to best fit me singularly and my own needs as rather than being generic....Without having to invest in multiple receivers or barrel$.
This gun is the result of that project effort.
Also I limited my out of pocket cost to $800 max not including the NFA fee. When this Weaver part arrives I'll be just at my spend limit.
Excellent depiction of the process as described.
I prefer the chamber insertion of individual rounds holding the round to be inserted in a specific manner. The round is cupped in the fingers, with the midpoint of the index and pinky finger on opposing ends of the round. Primer to pinky for under the gun insertion, primer to index finger for over the gun insertion. I have found this to be the most positive method of insertion for me. This is said without knowing if your particular grip of the cartridge(s) to be inserted, in the video, was to make visual observation easier as opposed more efficient.
If a swap is desired without concern for retention of the chambered round, another method is possible. Rack the slide all the way ejecting the chambered round and placing a new round on the lowered elevator. Tip the gun dumping the elevator round out into the hand. Then insert the desired round and work the slide forward chambering the round. If desired the elevator round can be reinserted in the magazine. While I believe it is slightly faster, it does not maintain possession of the chambered round.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
Agreed on all point Guantes.
Yes I handled the rounds as such to better show things on video...And that is also why I left the shells on the deck rather than say load from the Speedfeed aux. magazine on the gun, it's not possible to show them being handled from a first person view.
The Magpul vid was specific in that they wanted retention of the shell as removed so that is why this became an item of necessary skill per their instruction.
In the end the Mossy users on that vid wound up doing exactly what you describe; Fully ejecting the unused shell, dumping in hand the magazine fed shell and from there exchanging that shell for a specific shell (slug) as from a secondary source (gun or on body carry). With a net loss of one round for the Mossy guys as shown and zero for the Remy and Benelli users.
My method as shown here puts the Mossy folk not only back on equal footing but in steps involved it's simpler than either Remy or Benelli and faster to perform successfully.