Red dot help needed!

This is a discussion on Red dot help needed! within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Ok so I have ordered and am still waiting on the spikes tactical. I am about to order 500 rounds of bear steel ammo for ...

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Thread: Red dot help needed!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Mattmann's Avatar
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    Red dot help needed!

    Ok so I have ordered and am still waiting on the spikes tactical. I am about to order 500 rounds of bear steel ammo for about $100. So now I am looking at optics for the birthday. Lol! I have been looking around and it's between eotech xps2 and eotech 512. Now before we get into a ******* match on why some of you hate eotech and all that, that's not what I am looking for. I handeled a aimpoint on a bushmaster this weekend and a eotech on a Daniel defense and I have to say I don't like the scope style red dot. Seems to hard to have to find the dot compaired to an eotech. Plus the eotech is like $400 cheaper. So any advice would be nice on the two. Or if some of you have a better option please feel free to share. Thanks in advance!

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  3. #2
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    Array buckeye .45's Avatar
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    Eo-techs are fine weapons sights. If I was going to buy one, it would be one of the models that can take AA batteries though.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  4. #3
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    The xps won't have the issues with the battery springs crapping out, but they have been far from trouble free. Actual battery life of the xps seems to be about 200 hours.

    Aimpoints do not cost $400 more than eotechs. The new aimpoint pro costs $400 with the included mount.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Array Mattmann's Avatar
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    Hey texag, mind posting a web link to were I can get a pro for that price? Maybe worth looking into. Also what are all the problems with the xps your talking about.

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I prefer running Aimpoint T1's, but I do like the XPS. Grant at G&R sells T1's for $550 and the H1 for $487 if you don't need NV compatible, after the discount code. Then again, he has some EoTechs, like the 512 with a free Surefire G2, for $360 with the code as well, but I don't think he stocks them anymore (have to be ordered, I believe) since I'm sure 90% of his sells are Aimpoint. You can get the T1 with the LaRue QD mount for $625. MUCH better optic in my opinion, I beat the ever living crap out of them.

    Anyway, I'm all about light weight and the XPS will be better for that. If you aren't beating on this gun and it's mostly for the range or even hog hunting, I think the EoTech is a fine choice. If you'll be diving to urban prone and bouncing your gun off of a curb, then I'd ask you to reconsider. Personally, I leave one of my T1's on 24 hour a day on my HD rifle.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  7. #6
    Member Array Gabe Suarez's Avatar
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    I favor Aimpoints as well. Although I will say the new Hi-Lux CMR scope is a very nice piece of kit and it, along with a mount, will be far less than either the Aimpoint or Eotech. Look at the Hi-Lux here. One of my staff has been running one on his AR and has good reports.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattmann View Post
    Hey texag, mind posting a web link to were I can get a pro for that price? Maybe worth looking into. Also what are all the problems with the xps your talking about.
    SKD Tactical is currently out of stock, but they'll be $400 when they get more in.

    As for the XPS, here's some quotes from this thread on LF.net:

    Originally posted by DZhitshard:
    My first one made 12 rounds before the windage adjustment went free wheel/free will.
    No pun intended.
    I got a replacement PDQ though. It was too late in the game to go with an unproven so I of course went back to my staple optics.
    Originally posted by Riverine:

    My device population base started at 112, got recently increased to 145 (new batch).

    132 of them are ****-up. 172hrs, mean average.

    Attached to 5.56 and 7.62 platforms, shoulder-arms and crew serves.

    73% of those 132 went bye-bye because the opposed battery compartment, supposed to alleviate loss of electrical contact under recoil impulse...works. You don't lose connectivity under recoil impulse any more. Instead, because the batteries are not shock-isolated properly, and because batteries aren't designed to take jarring or impact from their short axis, they warp, crack, and usually leak. So at least you lose connectivity in an innovative fashion.

    ...with the added benefit of getting battery acid inside the device. Somewhat more caustic than water, one might surmise. So, those are a no-**** hard-kill; no getting a kit from EO so you can fix their short-sighted workmanship for them.

    EO is the Titanic, and moving the deck chairs around, amazingly, didn't help the hole in the hull.
    Originally posted by M4Guru:
    Originally posted by bp7178:
    I helped a friend zero his XPS yesterday and it had no detents at all when adjusting windage and elevation.
    Are you sure it was a real one?
    I had this issue. Mine went back twice. Number 3 worked for a weekend and then I traded it off.

    Actually, mine tracked off axis about 25 degrees during elevation adjustment.

    I sent it back and it came back with a wandering zero.

    It came back again working but the battery life was ass (I set it on a table and turned it on 8 hour cycles and recorded them. I think it was about 60-something hours.) My buddy said he'd just send it back to them again...so off to Eotech it went again I assume.
    Originally posted by waynewal:
    Shooting buddy bought one for indoor, low light competition shooting. He got 2 1 hour sessions before the batteries went dead.
    He replaced them and they worked for about four hours. Dead again.
    Sent it back for replacement. Will post again when he tries it.
    To be fair, there are several guys on that thread that have put them through some hard use with no issues.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Array Mattmann's Avatar
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    Yea I spok with grant at g&r tactical and he said they don't stick them anymore. He said they use to but had so many go down that he doesn't like them now. Soooo he has a pro with mount for $410 that he also recommended. Geuss that's what my goal shall be.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Question:
    What is the real world expected use of the gun to be, as a tool?

    The reason I ask is because on the one hand you are ordering discount ammo to shoot and I have to assume train with, but it is not duty/combat grade ammunition so that tells me you are not a LEO nor a contractor of some sort...Neither of whihc would seriously think to use this ammo for their individual applications.
    Then you mention that one sight is $400 less than another sight...Which normally by industry stand puts the one sight as not at all being comparable to the other for such a large dollar gap.

    So before advising one mfr. vs. another or X type reddot sight vs. Y type holographic sight (EOTech product is NOT a reddot sight) at A or B dollar point; Not knowing what the actual intended application and purpose of the gun as a tool is for makes it difficult to advise anything at all.

    What range...How large a target (varmint, man, big game animal, etc?)...What common environmental conditions (Is it commonly cold like here in the NE or are your going to be working the Border Patrol along the SW border)...Will you be shooting/patrolling under low light (the EOTech reticle rocks for this ahead of a red 'dot'). and if so will you have access to NV gear (no reddot product supports NV).

    Further to the above then cost should not be much of a factor as the tool is a save your life ,or anothers, piece of kit....And by that be a write off per your employer footing the bill or for you as a deductible item against work use.
    If it is not though and you're just planning to plink cans and poke holes in paper on a public range...Then I'd wonder how much bang for my four hundred bucks I could get as both saved (!) Y against X...Or better yet how could I better make use of that money such as in taking a carbine course while running my Russian mfrd. low market value (aka cheap) ammo so as to maximize my dollar spent.

    Answer these questions and the better if not right choice will likely become self evident.

    That's just how I would and do look at such questions myself directly.

    - Janq has EOTech (511 w/NV) as well as multiple type and mfr. reddot products mounted to handgun, shotgun, carbine and rifle based tools
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #10
    Senior Member Array Mattmann's Avatar
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    Janq.... You are right and make a lot of good points. I am not in any way shape or form using this as to make a living or a tool in which I make a living. I am using this as a tool in hd and shtf scenarios. I am planning to play with it a lot hence the cheap ammo. I am going to be attending carbine classes so I can become more efficient with it. I hope this helps with any missing info. Also how do you like your eotech? I don't need nv and waterproof to 200' with a 30 year battery life. I don't see any of that necessary. I do want reliable. I don't want to lose zero and have it on for a few hours here and there and it be dead. That's it. Help!

  12. #11
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    I have both an EOTech and an Aimpoint, each mounted on an AR.

    If all one had to do was simply look through the optic and shoot, then I'd choose the EOTech. The 65 MOA circle is a great aid to getting shots on target quickly when the target is inside of 25 yards. The center dot is 4 MOA, same as the Aimpoint H-1 I have. But it's not that simple. I need two fingers to turn the EOTech on, and I need to interrupt my field of vision AND find the right button to adjust the dot intensity up or down. The Aimpoint has superior battery life (3000+ hours) and can simply be left on all the time. Dot intensity is adjusted with one big knob that's easy to find and to manipulate.

    Then there's the reliability issue. EOTechs in hard use routinely go down because the spring contacts on the longitudinally-mounted batteries weaken and lose positive contact with the batteries. The newer models have batteries mounted cross-wise, and that's an improvement but not a cure. I can't speak to the inner circuitry, but the field reports of otherwise-happy EOTechs going stupid are legion. The same is simply not true forAimpoints.

    My "guiding light" and spiritual advisor for things AR-related is Pat Rogers, principal of EAG Tactical. I've been thru three multi-day EAG courses and my confidence in him is not based on armchair reading. Mr. Rogers conducts a couple of dozen carbine courses each year and sees 20+ shooters for 3 days at a time, so he has a good laboratory for assessing equipment durability. He's also tightly plugged into a wide range of pros in the field and gets good feedback on gear that works and that which doesn't. He has a dim view of the EOTech product line based on the number of samples he's personally witnessed going belly-up in class and his feedback from the field. In his view, the Aimpoint holds the high ground for red dot sights.

    My summary point in all this is that if you see the red dot as a critical element in your safety, then you owe it to yourself to choose the RDS with the best proven reliability. If your needs are less rigorous, then you can determine how much less rigorous and make tradeoffs between reliability and cost that are appropriate for your situation.
    Smitty
    NRA Endowment Member

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Matt,

    Considering your response with the additional details, I have two suggestions.

    The first is what I literally have mounted on my own carbine as well is the product I gave as a Christmas present to a student of mine who is also my friend, and he is a state police actual but only needed to outfit a carbine for HD...Which he has never put a round through and generally doesn't train unless he's got a qual to complete and then he calls me for help and a refresher (!).
    It replaced the EOTech 511 I'd had installed on my carbine while my student/friend, he could get anything he wants money no object thanks to the specifics of his specialized LEO position.

    The second is an an option that is not internet cool never mind tacti-cool...But flat out it works, and well by my own eval as well as that of a second student of mine again on my own equipment being used as a tool.

    Alpha)
    Primary Arms 'Red Dot Sights'
    $78.99 - $178.99
    http://www.primaryarms.com/category....categoryId=398
    I personally run their MRDs on my shotgun sighted in as dedicated for slug use and it _holds_ zero locked. Hard use tested, by my own hand.
    As well I run their 'M3' styler reddot on my carbine AND bought two more as gifts; One for my LEO buddy and a second toward my hunting mentor & partner for use on his own shotgun.
    Run a query on either model and you will find a decade of evals by others (google and YouTube) with nothing but good results to current.
    Yes battery life is not turn ii onand forget like an Aimpoint T1...But then for the extra $300 I could buy $20 in batteries and pocket the $280 toward ammo or a course fee...Not that it takes but an extra tenth of a second to turn the unit on anyway (!) be it for a course (range use) or as toward emergency combat application.

    Bravo)
    TruGlo
    http://www.truglosights.com/IW_Produ...00?company=TGI

    Yes, TruGlo.
    Hunters have been using TruGlo product for years now...Roughly a decade.
    Gear used by hunters gets bumped, banged, knocked around, moist, wet, dropped and generally hard used. Do they take them to war to be covered in foreign sands or under water while storming beach heads? Nope. But ask yourself; Do you? Most likely not...and if you did then Uncle Sam would be providing you with gear, or your employer would. Real world, and there would be no point to this thread query/RFI.
    So GI Joe gear at aside and back to common man use & pricing...TruGlo works and is known in industry and the market for same. It's just not navy SEAL certifiable is all. Big woop, unless you're gonna be a SEAL.
    I've got a TG803082 2x magnified (!) 2.5MOA reticle 42mm tube unit that I picked up from my local Dick's for $67.12. Retail.
    I currently have it mounted on my NRA bullseye competition .22LR which is a $400 Marvel Precision 'Unit 1' top end over a Colt aluminum frame lower. The gun as a whole on it's own has a $1K retail value as complete in build. Of course I didn't pay that much for it. But still, a grand.
    Do I feel silly, stupid, or in anyway self conscious when I show up with this gun and a TruGlo emblazoned product to a match to shoot? Nope. It works, period.
    The sight is rated for rifles and shotgun. It bets out the Ultradot 'MatchDot' I'd had on it prior this fall which caost me $189 before I returned it as that unit failed (!) inside of two days use. Seriously.
    TruGlo also makes 1x variants of same along with one that has a red/green user changeable on the fly reticle coloration.

    In my world we are still very much within a recession.
    The common man continues to count his dollars and dimes too. We fortunate enough to have a few extra bucks to shoot, train and buy gear largely are not made of money...And so dollar value remains an item of consideration if not primary focus.

    Does it 'look' cool to walk around ranges or show your friends your this n' that .MIL extreme duty gear? For a whole mess of folk, yes.
    Is there anything wrong with this? Nope. You work for your money, you spend your money as you see fit.
    Is .MIL extreme duty gear necessary to be a good & skilled shooter or to develop skill or to take game in the field (hunting) or to simply have fun at a range or to impress your friends with your functional _skills_? Nope...Not at all.
    Is using less than .MIL extreme duty uber Corvette cost gear a compromise against that of the average mans abilities or possibilities? IMHO nope, not at all...But that ultimately is upto the individual to decide.
    Go to some websites and they will have you believe that anything less than an Elcan 'Specter' for glass is a waste of time while I've read at other sights folks suggesting that a $29 to $49 panoramic reddot is good enough for use toward skill development, plinking and HD.
    Extremes are just that, and there there is the fat and wide median.

    Just a couple of ideas as opinion.
    I have no coin relation to either vendor/mfr. although quid pro quo I have done direct business with Primary Arms by way of it's founder, and walked away VERY satisfied as a customer.
    I do not though get any compensation or provisioning of any sort for saying good things. Likewise I say I was disappointed with Ultradot only as based on my own personal experience singular.

    $0.02 Street

    - Janq

    P.S.
    EOTech used to be a client of my company, and I got my unit comped to me at no cost.
    In my experience my model in specific eats batteries like baby birds do worms. Avoid the 511 at all cost, because you'll spend as much in batteries as you would on the sight. Seriously.
    The AA unit (512) I understand is somewhat better and the new XPS is supposed to be leaps and bounds better in this dept...But they went offline with us just before the XPS debuted so I cannot speak to it directly by experience or end user feedback.
    Oh, and my 511...It began acting funky and finally died this past fall/early winter. But it had seen hard use in my hands as used on rifles, carbines and shotgun so I won't call that as being suck so much. Repair is expensive...Basically they are to be replaced outside of a few minor items.
    YMMV.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    What range...How large a target (varmint, man, big game animal, etc?)...What common environmental conditions (Is it commonly cold like here in the NE or are your going to be working the Border Patrol along the SW border)...Will you be shooting/patrolling under low light (the EOTech reticle rocks for this ahead of a red 'dot'). and if so will you have access to NV gear (no reddot product supports NV).
    There isn't going to be a difference between the performance of a good red dot and an Eotech at night. Both are a huge upgrade over irons, the only difference is one has a 4 or 2 moa dot and the other has a 1 moa dot in a 65 moa circle. You can debate that one reticle is better than the other till you're blue in the face, it's going to come down to personal preference.

    Furthermore, numerous aimpoint models are NV compatible.

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Disagreed Texag.

    There is a _significant_ difference between the two at night.

    Most notably with an EOTech the reticle by design allows the shooter to range a target, a reddot regardless of dot size does not do this be it day or night.
    Additionally it is easier and thus quicker for the eye to pickup and superimpose the EOTech reticle on to a target than it is to find and align a red dot, once more regardless of dot size...Which can be available from 2 MOA up to 8MOA on various product and even user adjustable such as on the UltraDot product I'd made mention of.
    But all of this leads back to my original post here where I'd asked what is the specific users actual and real world (not imagined) intent for use of the tool; As related to firearm, target, environment and by that sighting method application.

    I made no comparison of EOTech and red dot to irons. To do so makes no sense.
    Of course either electro-sights are going to be better than irons, in lowlight...That is a given which doesn't even need to be said.
    A no brainer.

    As to Aimpoint once again as I'd stated to start the cost of such product ($700) is wholly unnecessary relative to what his intent for use is.
    So yes military grade Aimpoint costing $700 do have NV function (So does Trijicon too for that matter); But he's not military nor a contractor does not own or intended to make use of NVGs (which is necessary to make use of any $ight$ not inexpen$ive NV function), and as stated he would be plinking at cans and paper.
    Other reddot product that are _most relevant_ to his specific end use condition DO NOT have NV feature sets (nor are they needed), as within complete relevance to my statements prior...In whole with context.

    This is my industry and has been for the last 15 yrs.
    It is what I do as my primary career and these product mfrs. are either my companys clients direct, or they are product sold by my clients as vendors (lic. distributors or dealers) to govt., military and law enforcement. I'm well aware of the market and it's offerings normative as well as notable exceptions. I'm paid my mortgage money to be so.
    I'm the founder and CEO of my company, to which we are paid by industry and govt. to review & analyze market option and suggest solutions including of this specific product nature as related to solution provisioning for G/M/L purchasers & end users.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    1. I do not care if I can do an extremely rough ranging estimate with an optic meant for speed above all else.

    2. You do not have to align quality red dot sights like aimpoint. As long as you can see the dot, the bullet will shoot the same POI for given POA. This is just the same as an eotech.

    3. Aimpoints are not all $700. If you would read the thread, you would see that I mentioned the Aimpoint PRO, which has a 30k hour battery life and includes a mount, for $400. This is the same or cheaper than eotechs. If you want NV compatible models, NV compatible aimpoints are the same price as an NV compatible eotech.

    It appears that even though you work in the industry, you are mistaken about several facts that appear to be the crux of you argument. In the end, it will come down to opinion. You may value a fancy reticle, I value the better record of durability and reliability aimpoint has. As my rifle is used for home defense and will one day be a patrol rifle, it must be ready to go at all times. Having a sight that can be left on for years is critical to my needs for home defense. Due to the battery life offered by aimpoint, I can pick up my rifle and immediately go into action with the most effective sighting system on the rifle in operation, and with the batteries stored on my rifle, the sight can run continuously for 8-10 years. That is simply not an option with an eotech.

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