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AR-15: For Home Defense?

26K views 111 replies 42 participants last post by  CanuckQue 
#1 ·
I acquired an AR-15 with a Spike's lower and Rock River Arms upper on a trade. I have a Quad Rail floating hand guard, and I bought an Eotech 552. It has a removable handle and a retractable stock.

I have Magpul Pmag 30 round magazines.

I considered using this as a home defense gun. Would this be impractical?
 
#47 ·
It's my last resort gun after my conventional guns (.40 and .45 pistols/12 ga. pump shotgun) have failed to do the job. I live in the city and an AR-15 would be considered too extreme to the jury and overpenetrative (even recently bought PMC X-Tac steel-tipped 5.56mm loads) in a highly populated area should I have to resort to it as my primary gun.
 
#51 ·
It's my last resort gun after my conventional guns (.40 and .45 pistols/12 ga. pump shotgun) have failed to do the job. I live in the city and an AR-15 would be considered too extreme to the jury and overpenetrative (even recently bought PMC X-Tac steel-tipped 5.56mm loads) in a highly populated area should I have to resort to it as my primary gun.
ARs with proper ammo selection (heavy OTMs like 75gr tap or mk262) will achieve sufficient penetration in tissue while having less risk of overpenetration than buckshot, pistol rounds, or slugs. The long and short of it is that any round that performs well against humans is going to blast through several layers of drywall. Using an AR with the aforementioned ammo just reduces how many layers that will be while packing a much bigger wallop than a pistol round and being easier to operate than a shotgun.
 
#52 · (Edited)
Personally, I look at it like this, close range, non-lethal hit. What has a better chance of taking the BG out of the fight; .223 or 00 buck shot?

Even if it doesn't take them out of the fight, I believe a round of 00 is going to take them more time to get back into the fight and let's face it,....seconds count. Hence my AR sits in the safe unloaded and my 870 is locked, loaded and easily accessible.

Just more of my humble 2 cents.

BTW, that Magpul lever is slick! May have to invest in one of them. :wink:
 
#53 ·
Yep, the Magpul BAD Lever is on all my guns, even on my ambi Knight's Armament lowers. It makes easy work of malfunction drills, especially. SKD Tactical is running their "Year of the Magpul" promotion. I'm not sure what all it applies too, but with the code you get $8 off of the BAD lever. I'll post a few more pics of it tomorrow when I get a chance.

Jonathan
 
#54 ·
If I may, what training I received while in CAP and the sea cadets, not to mention training for work and personal classes I have taken has taught me to never attempt to clear a building without a 1 point sling that has a quick disconnec,. I also have an advantage over the right eye right hand dominant people in that as a left eye dominant shooter, i shoot rifles and tactical rifles left handed. i shoot pistols right handed, so if i am going to clear my home it is rifle or shotgun in left hand, pistol on right hip, if my rifle gets grabbed, i release my weapon, the sling will keep it attached to my body, draw my pistol and fire. obviously after id'ing my target. this creates a reaction from me that would be unexpected from the bad guy, i may shoot and loose my rifle, but it seems to me that it is better to put some rounds on target rather than lose my only defensive tool to a weapons grab. I was taught to immediatly move forward and try to raise the barrel into the tango but that seems like bad juju imo if he has a knife or blunt object in his hands to cut or strike me with
 
#56 ·
I highly recommend frangible rounds if you are going to use a high power rifle for home d. It simply limits your liability and if you were to go to court it would be much greater firepower on your side of the defense because you chose a non wall penetrating round. I know I know.
 
#61 ·
Once again, effective .223/5.56 rounds presents less risk after going through drywall than effective shotgun or pistol ammo. The bottom line is that anything that is going to meet FBI penetration specifications is going to go through plenty of layers of drywall.
 
#62 ·
You can say it til you're blue in the face, some people just don't understand or won't do the research to see that it's true. All it takes is a simple Google search to see that 5.56/.233 pose less risk of over penetration that almost all but the most useless shotgun and handgun ammunition.
 
#63 ·
You are indeed right about the penetration of the common AR round, (.223/5.56), I am just one of those individuals that feel it's not enough of a stopper. I don't care what round you load it with, I personally would not hunt deer with it, so I don't feel comfortable with it as an effective man stopper for CQB.
 
#64 ·
A deer is not a human. Deer are tough animals and .223 has taken deer. I hear about it all the time. Is it the round of choice... certainly not. But it can be done. I don't hunt though, so no personal experience. A heavy hollow point or soft point .223 (75-77gr) round is good enough for use on a human attacker, in my opinion. 2-3 rounds center mass is going to REALLY suck. And almost any rifle round is a better stop than even the mighty .45ACP.

Only reason I wouldn't want to use an AR for indoor defense is because 1: it's been discussed, barrel length over the use of a handgun. And 2: Noise..... they're effing loud.
 
#65 ·
I'm curious if anyone in here talking about the barrel length issue has done retention training with both a rifle and a handgun. I've found it's much easier to 1. keep control of a rifle and 2. get in a position where I can shoot with a rifle.
 
#66 ·
I think coming into a room or around a corner is where a rifle lacks. I'd much rather fight with a rifle, and with sling, it's be much easier to keep control of. Yet, I think a pistol is easier to avoid an attempt of the BG trying to disarm you in the first place, seeing as though, coming around a blind corner, you can keep the pistol tucked into your body. I could be wrong of course. I have no formal training.
 
#71 ·
I think it's a very slim chance they'll go for the weapon at all, and even a slimmer chance they'll get it if you have proper training. Like I said a while back, even if they go for it, training would kick in and you'd probably be ok. Like mentioned above, pull the trigger. Like I learned, drop down while pulling the trigger to bring the muzzle up. When his legs are gone, I imagine he'll let go. All in the training.

If enough time was spent in training, one could become very proficient at clearing a house with a 700 with a 24" barrel, it just wouldn't be the best thing to spend that much rime training to master... It's very easy to overthink these things. Train hard with the weapon of your choosing, and you'll be very well prepared. For me, that's now a Glock 17 (still run my Nighthawks, don't worry) and a 16" AR15. I have AR's from 8" to to 18", but I trust my KAC's the most. In a few more months I'll be adding the SR15 CQB 11.5" to the mix and I'm sure that'll take over as the defensive rifle.

Guys, I'd suggest some research before posting comments about over penetration of the 5.56. It's 100% fact that it's is less deadly after a few walls which makes it a better CQB weapon than any standard shotgun or handgun. Also, within fragmentation range and ammo like TAP, mk262, 77gr OTM, etc., it is extremely effective. This nonsense about it being ineffective is, in most cases, from poorly placed shots and being far out of it's effective fragmentation range. 5.56 is not a shotgun or hunting rifle. You shouldn't train to fire one round and wait to see what happens. The beauty of the round is that 3 or 4 rounds can be put center mass in no time at all. Paul Howe teaches 4 to center mass then reassess. He has an article and teaches in class that the human body takes about the same amount of time to respond to being shot as it does to put 4 rounds into center mass. I hope that makes sense. I'm typing on my iPhone right now and can't see all the text. So, to squeeze every bit of performance out of the platform, train to fire 3 or 4 rounds center mass, then reassess.

It's also very effective against vests. Like I mentioned before, we had a string of home invasions here where 4 guys armed and wearing vests were where showing no mercy on their victims. I know I'm very proficient with a handgun, but 4 guys with vests would be a bit of work. I'd much prefer 5.56 (or even 6.5 or 6.8) over anything else I can think of, and I have a lot of "everything else".

Amazing Shot recovery (especially with the KAC Triple Tap, I love this thing), target transitions, defeats vests, light weight, less risk to neighbors or those in other room (if that's a concern), I look good holding one, can easily remove all the accessories (Optic, Light, PEQ's etc) in case it's taken into evidence after a defensive shooting :D j/k

Don't limit yourself due to what you may think. Train on it for a few months hard, only then will you know if it's for you or not. Just because something felt awkward in the first 30 minutes of trying doesn't mean it actually is. I see this all the time where guys rule something out, especially an aggressive shooting position and stance/grip, because it felt strange the first time they tried it. It can take months to become comfortable. Now, for ms, the things that used to be comfortable are awkward because I trained to do it the more effective way and I'm VERY glad I gave it the time and effort.
 
#73 ·
I have personally seen a shoothouse demo of a long gun being taken away REALLY quick and it wasn't pretty! I don't believe the discussion is towards using a long gun to clear house. Sitting in a safe room and waiting for the BG to come to you is the proper use. If you have a partner, then okay, go ahead and clear with the long gun, but you better know how to retain it because as I said, it happens quick when the perp knows your coming!

Guys!! Please re-read my post. I said I was not personally comfortable with the AR round for dropping a deer/BG. I never said it wouldn't.

I am also VERY aware that common .223 ammo wil fragment after passing thru just 2 layers of sheet rock, (seen that demo too). As long as I know where my loved ones are, (not behind the wall/intended target), I don't give a rat's pututy if I go thru 4 walls! I live in the boonies.

I have spoken to many returning vets that hated the round that they were required to carry. Many added that if they could've picked up AK's along the way they would've killed 2 birds with one stone, better round and a better rifle. And yes, I have heard from those that had no problem with the round or the weapon, but in the free world here where we can pick what we wish to use to defend ourselves/loved ones. My AR is not for close range, heck, I wish I would've held out and got an AR in 6.8 or even the .50 Beowulf, (an upper may still be in the future).

I personally believe there are much better options than the beloved/worshiped AR in .223/5.56 for CQB or home defense. Such as nine .33 projectiles with one pull of the trigger.

Look, we can sit here and argue Ginger or Mary Ann until we all need a little blue pill, but the simple fact is that what ever you have the ability to handle accurately, run consistently and feel confident in taking care of the threat is your best line for home defense.
 
#74 ·
Very true. I also have these that would do well (pics below), I just prefer the SR15 for my needs and the layout of my house - which is very open. Like I mentioned a few posts back, any weapon can work well for you if you train with it. The key is that you train with it!

Sorry for the cell phone pic - That is an SBR'd Kriss w/ a suppressor, not the 16" model they sell.


 
#75 ·
Where does he get those wonderful toys?

:)
 
#76 ·
Fastball- I am not required to load my AR with M855. I am not in the military. I know the rounds the majority those in the military are issued suck. That doesn't have much bearing on this discussion.

I would also advise you to check out the terminal ballistics on various 7.62x39 loadings and compare them to various 5.56x45 loadings. I think you will be very surprised by the results.
 
#86 ·
Fastball- I would also advise you to check out the terminal ballistics on various 7.62x39 loadings and compare them to various 5.56x45 loadings. I think you will be very surprised by the results.
I'm not one to rely soley on stat numbers, (unless we're talking baseball). I believe tested numbers by the dude with the pocket protector are interesting and if I like what I see, it requires further research on my part. I find that what the clipboard says and what happens out on the street/battlefield rarely concur.

No offense taken fellas, again, just personal opinions/experiences here. Always good to hear from others to broaden are knowledge base.

I should also add that besides my 870 is a Mossy HS410 pump stoked with Winchester PDX1 ammo. Awesome stuff for semi close range. My brother-in-law's neighbor has killed a half dozen coyotes with this round and it's very effective!

BTW, that KRISS would make a FINE CQB/HD weapon!!! Kudos!
 
#77 ·
I hear of people say that the 7.62x39 round isn't effective.... so what? The point is, .223/5.56 is effective. As Texag said, we're not limited to 55gr FMJ or 62gr Green tip ammo, which the 62gr stuff alone is mostly to blame for it's poor stopping power. There are insurgents out there who have taken hits by sniper 7.62 NATO rounds and lived. Is that round ineffective? Certainly not. I will say, that I don't think the .223/5.56 makes a good long range round, especially in typical AR-15 16" barrels. But, since when do we defend ourselves from 100 yards or more? .223/5.56 is a great close round round. I don't think the .223/5.56 is an end all round, I'd love to have an AR-10 of some kind (Hk 417) :smile: but I definatly don't feel under gunned with .223/5.56.

I have an AK, and an AR. I'd pick my AR first in a self defense situation. I shoot it better, faster, and more accurately. It feels better, and I feel it's a bit more versatile (to me). I think the AK has it's place, and I keep soft point 7.62x39 rounds in it, as I keep 75gr TAP in my AR. I just think of my AR and AK as offensive weapons, which I'll never need to use them in that manner. But they could certainly be used for defense. I prefer my pistols, or shotgun for defense.

And Fastball, I don't want to make it seem like I'm arguing. I re-read some of what I typed in the post and it may come off as "defensive". Just having a friendly debate :smile:
 
#81 ·
Just for the sake of this thread, here's my home defense weapons for tonight!!

I've done the shoot houses with ARs with no problem. It's quite unlikely that anyone will be grabbing for your weapon or that they'll even have a chance unless you GIVE THEM THE CHANCE by not clearing properly and not taking your time. Not saying it can't happen any other way, but I'd assume it's most likely the home owner's fault for giving them the opportunity. My house is very open and there are very few places for someone to hide that I wouldn't be well aware of. Again, this all comes down to training. If you don't train regularly, I wouldn't suggest it. I run drills at least a few times a week and I work corners as well. Also, I dry practice for at least 30 minutes every day.

I guess I'm also looking at it like this. If someone breaks in to my house, I'll immediately know exactly where they are in my house and their direction of movement by the zone(s) disturbed. Also, I have yet to meet any experienced trainer that says to grab the handgun over the AR for home defense, whether clearing or staying put. Not one. I'm sure all will add to use what you are comfortable with and train with, but all things being equal, the AR is the best choice. Many also recommend shotguns for home defense to those that are new to firearms. I understand the concerns mentioned here, I just don't think they're valid enough to warrant choosing the handgun over the AR. I'm speaking from a lot of time behind each option here, so maybe I'm just more comfortable than some others. I bet with enough training, we'd see opinions change here.

I'm glad this was brought up though, it's interesting seeing peoples views on this.

Barrett M82 50


Barrett 98b 338 Lapua
 
#84 ·
My guns are FILTHY, so you're in for a lot of work!

I was just posting all this stuff in fun for the thread since we've already hit all the important parts and are starting to repeat points or reach far into the world of myth!

I think, like Texag mentioned, this stuff is being way over-analyzed. This stuff about windows is stretching it a bit. Also, if you're throwing shots that bad, you might just want to use a bat instead. Also, I really don't want to get into the effects of glass on different weights of 5.56. Another completely misunderstood topic and what looks like another instance of people posting just to argue. It's unfortunate that these threads head in this direction where fact is lost and myth becomes the basis of some decisions.

Although it's very unlikely we'll ever need to use a gun in home defense (though just recently I drew on a guy breaking in and was involved in a car-jacking/shooting 12 years ago), it's still very important that we stay on track and not and not get lost in these extremely unlikely what-if's.
 
#97 ·
This is a very bad way of looking at it, but I understand why many do.

I don't buy into that train of thought and MOST CERTAINLY would not rely on it or use it in any way when making a decision. At 5 to 10 yards (inside home - usually less though) there would not be enough spread to make that much difference. Even if it did, I can throw a burst of five or six 5.56 ACCURATELY in less time than it takes for me to fire 2 rounds from a shotgun, and even three or four rounds of 5.56 will be just as devastating as one round of 00 buck in his eyes. And if I can't accurately place multiple hits with an AR in a very short time at those short distances, I NEED MORE TRAINING.
 
#92 ·
Here's a few links too take a look at. A lot of these guys are serious shooters, some LE, .mil, etc., so keep in mind that many know what they're taking about, but of course some are just nuts, like every forum has!

Long guns for Home Defense. This is by Dr Gary Roberts (DocGKR). He is an expert in the field and well known and respected in many circles including LE and mil. - Home Defense Long Guns - M4Carbine.net Forums

Suppressed AR - Suppressed SBR for home/property defense?? - M4Carbine.net Forums

AR or Shotgun - AR-15 vs Shotgun inside a residence? - M4Carbine.net Forums

Shotgun Myth for Home Defense - The great shotgun urban myth - M4Carbine.net Forums
 
#94 ·
Good info, thanks for posting.
 
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