AR-15: For Home Defense?

This is a discussion on AR-15: For Home Defense? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by MNBurl If you have the room between yourself and your neighbors go ahead. I don't so the SXS 12 gauge is my ...

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Thread: AR-15: For Home Defense?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNBurl View Post
    If you have the room between yourself and your neighbors go ahead. I don't so the SXS 12 gauge is my choice pointing down my hallway with my M&P 40 backing it up.
    Once again, effective .223/5.56 rounds presents less risk after going through drywall than effective shotgun or pistol ammo. The bottom line is that anything that is going to meet FBI penetration specifications is going to go through plenty of layers of drywall.

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    You can say it til you're blue in the face, some people just don't understand or won't do the research to see that it's true. All it takes is a simple Google search to see that 5.56/.233 pose less risk of over penetration that almost all but the most useless shotgun and handgun ammunition.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  4. #63
    Member Array Fastball's Avatar
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    You are indeed right about the penetration of the common AR round, (.223/5.56), I am just one of those individuals that feel it's not enough of a stopper. I don't care what round you load it with, I personally would not hunt deer with it, so I don't feel comfortable with it as an effective man stopper for CQB.
    You never see a motorcycle parked ouside a psychiatrist's office!

  5. #64
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastball View Post
    You are indeed right about the penetration of the common AR round, (.223/5.56), I am just one of those individuals that feel it's not enough of a stopper. I don't care what round you load it with, I personally would not hunt deer with it, so I don't feel comfortable with it as an effective man stopper for CQB.
    A deer is not a human. Deer are tough animals and .223 has taken deer. I hear about it all the time. Is it the round of choice... certainly not. But it can be done. I don't hunt though, so no personal experience. A heavy hollow point or soft point .223 (75-77gr) round is good enough for use on a human attacker, in my opinion. 2-3 rounds center mass is going to REALLY suck. And almost any rifle round is a better stop than even the mighty .45ACP.

    Only reason I wouldn't want to use an AR for indoor defense is because 1: it's been discussed, barrel length over the use of a handgun. And 2: Noise..... they're effing loud.

  6. #65
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    I'm curious if anyone in here talking about the barrel length issue has done retention training with both a rifle and a handgun. I've found it's much easier to 1. keep control of a rifle and 2. get in a position where I can shoot with a rifle.

  7. #66
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    I'm curious if anyone in here talking about the barrel length issue has done retention training with both a rifle and a handgun. I've found it's much easier to 1. keep control of a rifle and 2. get in a position where I can shoot with a rifle.
    I think coming into a room or around a corner is where a rifle lacks. I'd much rather fight with a rifle, and with sling, it's be much easier to keep control of. Yet, I think a pistol is easier to avoid an attempt of the BG trying to disarm you in the first place, seeing as though, coming around a blind corner, you can keep the pistol tucked into your body. I could be wrong of course. I have no formal training.

  8. #67
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    I think coming into a room or around a corner is where a rifle lacks. I'd much rather fight with a rifle, and with sling, it's be much easier to keep control of. Yet, I think a pistol is easier to avoid an attempt of the BG trying to disarm you in the first place, seeing as though, coming around a blind corner, you can keep the pistol tucked into your body. I could be wrong of course. I have no formal training.

    It'd sure be interesting to get a shoothouse and some sims rifles and pistols together, but i bet with proper cornering technique the difference in how easily a BG could grab a rifle vs a pistol would be inconsequential. I do know that keeping hold of the rifle is easier, getting into a position where you can shoot is easier (either fall on your butt and shoot up into them or front kick them off you), and that when you shoot someone with a rifle, it causes a whole hell of a lot more damage than a pistol does.

  9. #68
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastball View Post
    You are indeed right about the penetration of the common AR round, (.223/5.56), I am just one of those individuals that feel it's not enough of a stopper. I don't care what round you load it with, I personally would not hunt deer with it, so I don't feel comfortable with it as an effective man stopper for CQB.
    Well ask all the insurgents that befell to the weak crappy 5.56 with no stopping power have to say about it. I can close my eyes right now and I still have vivid memory of the carnage those little itty bitty 22 caliber light weight wussy rounds caused to human flesh.

    Here's some science. A rail gun which is real weapon being tested by the worlds finest US Navy right now fires a little tiny metal slug at voracious velocities unimaginable by the standard issue human brain. It hits with such an impact from shockwave that it does more damage than a conventional heavy weight explosive laden shell. Velocity is sometimes more desirable in damage than sheer mass.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  10. #69
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    It'd sure be interesting to get a shoothouse and some sims rifles and pistols together, but i bet with proper cornering technique the difference in how easily a BG could grab a rifle vs a pistol would be inconsequential. I do know that keeping hold of the rifle is easier, getting into a position where you can shoot is easier (either fall on your butt and shoot up into them or front kick them off you), and that when you shoot someone with a rifle, it causes a whole hell of a lot more damage than a pistol does.
    Here is a tip..... im under oath not to share it... just kidding. When someone grabs your AR you tuck it into your body as tightly as you can possibly pull it in and start yanking that trigger back. I bet he takes a few in his pretty little chest but since its not effective at stopping people you might want to just round your corners with a sling shot and a marble. But you are right that should be taught in common civilian offered home defense courses.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  11. #70
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastball View Post
    Bingo!
    Its all about the court case my man ... all about court. Which you WILL go to if you dont kill the bastage.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  12. #71
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I think it's a very slim chance they'll go for the weapon at all, and even a slimmer chance they'll get it if you have proper training. Like I said a while back, even if they go for it, training would kick in and you'd probably be ok. Like mentioned above, pull the trigger. Like I learned, drop down while pulling the trigger to bring the muzzle up. When his legs are gone, I imagine he'll let go. All in the training.

    If enough time was spent in training, one could become very proficient at clearing a house with a 700 with a 24" barrel, it just wouldn't be the best thing to spend that much rime training to master... It's very easy to overthink these things. Train hard with the weapon of your choosing, and you'll be very well prepared. For me, that's now a Glock 17 (still run my Nighthawks, don't worry) and a 16" AR15. I have AR's from 8" to to 18", but I trust my KAC's the most. In a few more months I'll be adding the SR15 CQB 11.5" to the mix and I'm sure that'll take over as the defensive rifle.

    Guys, I'd suggest some research before posting comments about over penetration of the 5.56. It's 100% fact that it's is less deadly after a few walls which makes it a better CQB weapon than any standard shotgun or handgun. Also, within fragmentation range and ammo like TAP, mk262, 77gr OTM, etc., it is extremely effective. This nonsense about it being ineffective is, in most cases, from poorly placed shots and being far out of it's effective fragmentation range. 5.56 is not a shotgun or hunting rifle. You shouldn't train to fire one round and wait to see what happens. The beauty of the round is that 3 or 4 rounds can be put center mass in no time at all. Paul Howe teaches 4 to center mass then reassess. He has an article and teaches in class that the human body takes about the same amount of time to respond to being shot as it does to put 4 rounds into center mass. I hope that makes sense. I'm typing on my iPhone right now and can't see all the text. So, to squeeze every bit of performance out of the platform, train to fire 3 or 4 rounds center mass, then reassess.

    It's also very effective against vests. Like I mentioned before, we had a string of home invasions here where 4 guys armed and wearing vests were where showing no mercy on their victims. I know I'm very proficient with a handgun, but 4 guys with vests would be a bit of work. I'd much prefer 5.56 (or even 6.5 or 6.8) over anything else I can think of, and I have a lot of "everything else".

    Amazing Shot recovery (especially with the KAC Triple Tap, I love this thing), target transitions, defeats vests, light weight, less risk to neighbors or those in other room (if that's a concern), I look good holding one, can easily remove all the accessories (Optic, Light, PEQ's etc) in case it's taken into evidence after a defensive shooting :D j/k

    Don't limit yourself due to what you may think. Train on it for a few months hard, only then will you know if it's for you or not. Just because something felt awkward in the first 30 minutes of trying doesn't mean it actually is. I see this all the time where guys rule something out, especially an aggressive shooting position and stance/grip, because it felt strange the first time they tried it. It can take months to become comfortable. Now, for ms, the things that used to be comfortable are awkward because I trained to do it the more effective way and I'm VERY glad I gave it the time and effort.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangoseal View Post
    I highly recommend frangible rounds if you are going to use a high power rifle for home d. It simply limits your liability and if you were to go to court it would be much greater firepower on your side of the defense because you chose a non wall penetrating round. I know I know.
    I'll point out your other mistake as others have already called you on the frangible round thing. Mistake 2 is that a 5.56/.223 round is not a "high power" rifle round. It is an intermediate (at best) round designed to bridge the gap between a pistol caliber subgun and a real "high power" rifle. The concept was to be better than a pistol round and smaller/easier to shoot than a "high power" rifle round. High powered it most certainly is not.

    Real "high power" rifle rounds shoot through concrete block and will go all the way through a house and halfway into the next house under the right conditions.
    Last edited by atctimmy; March 1st, 2011 at 09:40 PM. Reason: Ninjas
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  14. #73
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    I have personally seen a shoothouse demo of a long gun being taken away REALLY quick and it wasn't pretty! I don't believe the discussion is towards using a long gun to clear house. Sitting in a safe room and waiting for the BG to come to you is the proper use. If you have a partner, then okay, go ahead and clear with the long gun, but you better know how to retain it because as I said, it happens quick when the perp knows your coming!

    Guys!! Please re-read my post. I said I was not personally comfortable with the AR round for dropping a deer/BG. I never said it wouldn't.

    I am also VERY aware that common .223 ammo wil fragment after passing thru just 2 layers of sheet rock, (seen that demo too). As long as I know where my loved ones are, (not behind the wall/intended target), I don't give a rat's pututy if I go thru 4 walls! I live in the boonies.

    I have spoken to many returning vets that hated the round that they were required to carry. Many added that if they could've picked up AK's along the way they would've killed 2 birds with one stone, better round and a better rifle. And yes, I have heard from those that had no problem with the round or the weapon, but in the free world here where we can pick what we wish to use to defend ourselves/loved ones. My AR is not for close range, heck, I wish I would've held out and got an AR in 6.8 or even the .50 Beowulf, (an upper may still be in the future).

    I personally believe there are much better options than the beloved/worshiped AR in .223/5.56 for CQB or home defense. Such as nine .33 projectiles with one pull of the trigger.

    Look, we can sit here and argue Ginger or Mary Ann until we all need a little blue pill, but the simple fact is that what ever you have the ability to handle accurately, run consistently and feel confident in taking care of the threat is your best line for home defense.
    You never see a motorcycle parked ouside a psychiatrist's office!

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Very true. I also have these that would do well (pics below), I just prefer the SR15 for my needs and the layout of my house - which is very open. Like I mentioned a few posts back, any weapon can work well for you if you train with it. The key is that you train with it!

    Sorry for the cell phone pic - That is an SBR'd Kriss w/ a suppressor, not the 16" model they sell.


    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  16. #75
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    Where does he get those wonderful toys?

    :)
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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