Which assault rifle?

This is a discussion on Which assault rifle? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by C hawk Glock Your response comes from an area of lacking in experience and knowledge. I forgive you for that, as some ...

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  1. #76
    twc
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    Your response comes from an area of lacking in experience and knowledge. I forgive you for that, as some times we (me as well) all have lessons to learn. Heck I know quite a bit about some firearms, but every single day there are a couple DC members who have the experience and willingness to share with others.

    Like Pirate I own both platforms and have shot them extensively. Just because I have my opinions on my own SHTF firearm does not mean each person would agree, but to question the reliability of the AK platform compared to AR's is laughable. My AK will eat corrosive or non corrosive ammo all day long and I would feel very comfortable shooting 25 rounds of either before cleaning. I would argue to say that my AK could do 1,000 rounds if god forbid it came to it. Do you feel that confident in your AR? Well do yah?
    First of all I never questioned the reliability of the ak platform. Dont know where you read that. I do own an ak74, I know how reliable they are. I also know that if I dont clean it that same day I shoot I'm gonna have to worry about rust from the corrosive ammo I shoot. I also know I'm the only person in my area that uses 5.45 and come shtf knowbody is going to have any I can trade for or want to take any off my hand in a trade. I don't even own an AR, you are putting words in my mouth or assuming you know where I am coming from. In my experience of shooting the M4 and AK's I will take the AK every time, but in a shtf situation I want my AK in 7.62 or 223.

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  3. #77
    Member Array eggs's Avatar
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    I have a solution get an Ak for yourself and an AR for the wife
    I carry a gun to protect myself & the people I love from the Monsters that roam this earth.

  4. #78
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    I just switched from the AR to a Saiga in .308. 308 is readily available, any large animal hunting it could handle, its extremely reliable.

    I got tired of babying the AR. I expect in true shtf you wont have time to baby it even if you need to. Id rather have the option to baby it but know if it cant be babyed, it will still do its job.

  5. #79
    Senior Member Array Texag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    Your response comes from an area of lacking in experience and knowledge. I forgive you for that, as some times we (me as well) all have lessons to learn. Heck I know quite a bit about some firearms, but every single day there are a couple DC members who have the experience and willingness to share with others.

    Like Pirate I own both platforms and have shot them extensively. Just because I have my opinions on my own SHTF firearm does not mean each person would agree, but to question the reliability of the AK platform compared to AR's is laughable. My AK will eat corrosive or non corrosive ammo all day long and I would feel very comfortable shooting 25 rounds of either before cleaning. I would argue to say that my AK could do 1,000 rounds if god forbid it came to it. Do you feel that confident in your AR? Well do yah?
    After 4k through my AR with no malfunctions, yeah. As for that "gallon of oil to keep it running", during that 4k I've had a 1oz container of larue machine gunners lube. This was used to keep my AR well oiled during the aforementioned 4k, and did the same for my pistols, to the tune of roughly 10k. I have used 2/3 of an oz during that time.

    I'm surprised no one has mentioned ease of mounting accessories. Any defensive long gun should at minimum have a light and sling on it, and preferably an optic. It's much easier to find a mounting option that works for you with an AR than an AK, especially when it comes to optics. The AR also has superior ergonomics (IE not having to take your firing hand off the grip to use the stock safety). as far as reliability, I've already said what my gun is doing, here's something a little more impressive:

    On 12-24-09 I contacted Pat Rogers to see what the current round count of the BCM 16" Mid-Length that he has been loaning out to students. Pat refers to this BCM Mid-Length as "Filthy 14" and provided me with the following information on this gun:

    ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************* "Filthy #14 is the most used, and has (as 12-24-09) 28905 rounds down range. The barrel is original. It has never had a brush put through it. -At 16,400 rounds bolt lug cracked. Replaced the bolt carrier group

    -At approximately 26,000 rounds fired a 5 shot 50m group that went into 0.5". This might not be that tight at 100 meters.

    -At 26,450 rds had 3 failures to extract. Replaced BCG and cleaned gun for the first time

    We use only SLip2000 EWL for lube and Slip 2000 725 to clean.

    **All of the rounds were fired during class (at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days)**

    I do not recommend allowing the gun to go this long without PM (preventive maintenance). However, we wanted to see how far we could take this particular gun (#14) without being burdened by the myth of meticulous cleaning."

    ************************************************** ************************************************** ***********************************

    Keep in mind the punishment that Pat Rogers' BCM mid-length has been put through. The gun is being shot approximately 8 hours a day in a tactical training class environment at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days. Very few people have the time, money, or effort to run a gun like that for 28,905 rounds. This upper has the standard barrel, not the new BFH (cold hammer forged) barrel.
    That gun is currently over 40,000 rounds downrange. Crazy what happens when you buy an AR made by a brand that builds to a standard, huh?
    I collect ammo, not guns.

  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by borglyn View Post
    Just wanted to throw this out there. I bought a gun already. I get it, you do not like my Bushmaster. Please stop PM me with paid too much or crap gun or just don't like it.
    I got what I got and I like it! Still have yet to shoot it. Waiting for an otis cleaning kit to arrive.
    T
    Borglyn, I have a few thoughts for you regarding your Bushmaster.

    Most AR's operate on a DI (Direct Impingement) gas system. In short, this method of operation cycles gasses back in to the receiver to cycle the bolt. Consequently, the action of DI AR's can and does get a little dirty after shooting a bit. Just being mindful of proper maintenance will have your AR running like a top. AR's don't run their best "dry"....they need a nice coating of good oil in the upper receiver components to cycle smoothly and reliably.....and that's very easy to both accomplish and also to overlook.

    AR's are quite easy to maintain, pop the 2 pins connecting the upper and lower halves, remove the bolt/carrier group and simply clean out the carbon build-up. Taking a few runs with solvent soaked patches through the chamber end, through the barrel 1st, then a bore snake run through the action end, towards the muzzle with a light coating of oil is all you'll need to do. The bolt carrier group can and should be disassembled and cleaned occasionally as well (see video link below).

    Since everyone on the planet now produces some variation of an AR, it's good to know what parts are prone to weakness/breakage/inferiority. Knowing this can greatly aid in running a very reliable gun. In an AR, the bolt carrier group is the epicenter of reliability in that gun platform. Some companies make good ones, others not so much. The good news is that having a spare BCG as a part of your kit is like having a spare tire in your trunk. You wont need it much, but when/if you do, you have a small, drop-in part, that will get your gun back up and running immediately.

    I would strongly suggest picking up a complete spare bolt carrier group (BCG) from a reputable quality source such as BCM (BCM Bolt Carrier Group MPI Auto M16 ) or from Daniel Defense ( http://danieldefense.com/components-...ier-group.html ). Both of these companies make absolutely the finest AR's and AR parts available anywhere. Buy from either with 100% confidence. AR parts are largely universally interchangeable from most any maker....might as well get the high reliability stuff, if not the rifle itself, from those that address the details extremely well.

    This is probably the single most important spare parts set you could have in your kit to make sure your gun stays in good working order.

    The lower receiver group is made up of small parts such as pins, springs, trigger and so on. Many AR owners also keep a spare lower parts kit (LPK) on hand as well.

    Beyond those two things, you're good to go. AR's are a fantastic and highly adaptable/customizable platform that allow the use to very easily modify their guns in a number of ways that require no need what so ever for gunsmithing. Most add-on's or alterations are typically extremely easy, even for the beginner, to apply themselves....and this flexibility in the platform makes the AR unlike almost any other weapon system, in a good way.

    Last piece of advice, if you have any questions about your new AR or just want to expand your knowledge, AR15.Com - Your Firearm Resource. (AR-15, AR-10, M4 Carbine, M16, H&K, SIG, FNH, FAL, AK-47, 50 Cal, M1/M1A, Handgun, Pistol, Training, Hunting, and More!) is a wealth of information and resources to any AR owner.

    This video should give a good idea of how to keep your AR in good working order: ‪How to field strip and clean your AR15‬‏ - YouTube

    If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me, I'd be more than happy to assist.

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  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    After 4k through my AR with no malfunctions, yeah. As for that "gallon of oil to keep it running", during that 4k I've had a 1oz container of larue machine gunners lube. This was used to keep my AR well oiled during the aforementioned 4k, and did the same for my pistols, to the tune of roughly 10k. I have used 2/3 of an oz during that time.

    I'm surprised no one has mentioned ease of mounting accessories. Any defensive long gun should at minimum have a light and sling on it, and preferably an optic. It's much easier to find a mounting option that works for you with an AR than an AK, especially when it comes to optics. The AR also has superior ergonomics (IE not having to take your firing hand off the grip to use the stock safety). as far as reliability, I've already said what my gun is doing, here's something a little more impressive:



    That gun is currently over 40,000 rounds downrange. Crazy what happens when you buy an AR made by a brand that builds to a standard, huh?
    With all due respect your points are like me going into a business meeting in which I know every question that will be asked. I own both dogs in this fight. I will not fault you for your preference or opinion.

    When SHTF you will see an AK in my hands and a Glock on my hip. The last thing I will be thinking is does my AR have M4 feed ramps and properly staked gas key so it can be reliable.
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    The last thing I will be thinking is does my AR have M4 feed ramps and properly staked gas key so it can be reliable.
    By that standard my Garand tops them both, but it still won't be my #1 choice when TSHTF. My Glock 30 on my hip and for in close my AR's while the M1A is my reach out and touch...
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #83
    Senior Member Array borglyn's Avatar
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    5POINT56, Thanks.
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  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    With all due respect your points are like me going into a business meeting in which I know every question that will be asked. I own both dogs in this fight. I will not fault you for your preference or opinion.

    When SHTF you will see an AK in my hands and a Glock on my hip. The last thing I will be thinking is does my AR have M4 feed ramps and properly staked gas key so it can be reliable.
    It's not something I will be thinking about either, because I did research and bought a rifle the meets or exceeds the TDP in every category, then I confirmed that the rifle functions.
    atctimmy likes this.
    I collect ammo, not guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texag View Post
    It's not something I will be thinking about either, because I did research and bought a rifle the meets or exceeds the TDP in every category, then I confirmed that the rifle functions.
    Give it up Texag, some people just don't get it.

    As for me I know that my AR will do everything I ever ask of it. Whether I clean it or not.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    By that standard my Garand tops them both, but it still won't be my #1 choice when TSHTF. My Glock 30 on my hip and for in close my AR's while the M1A is my reach out and touch...
    So what is your bug out vehicle an Edsel? haha
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    So what is your bug out vehicle an Edsel? haha
    I think the brand name is older than Edsel: Jeep "Wrangler 4x4" (Unlimited Sahara model).
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by twc View Post
    Wouldn't an ak74 require more cleaning than an AR? I would feel better firing 25 rounds through an AR and leaving it be than an ak74 due to its corrosive ammo. Also good luck finding anyone who has 5.45 to trade and good luck trying to trade 5.45 to anyone. It seems to me the ak74 is a very overated shtf rifle.
    25 rounds?? I fired about 400 through the KAC the weekend before last at a friend's ranch over 3 days and put it back in it's case. I cleaned it before leaving, we hunted all day and night for three days and our guns were filthy from the environment. Almost every round fired through my KAC SR15 was suppressed which causes more pressure and fouling to enter the receiver. I also put a couple hundred through my MK18 (10.5"). Since I've gotten back, I've only put an additional 350 to 400 through it as I've been shooting the MK18 a lot more and I've only gotten out about 5 times. I'm headed back out for three days next week and will give it a quick wipe down before I go and lube. I'm sure I'll put at least 1,000 through it before it gets cleaned again as I do this a couple times a month. If it was corrosive ammo, I may be hesitant to leave it sit for too long, but even then I wouldn't be too concerned.

    This thread has some crazy stuff in it about cleaning and which gun runs longer, etc. I've never had a quality gun crap out on me due to being dirty. The only thing that forces me to cleaning my ARs is NOT a failure, but the fact that it's oozing stink and filth gets transferred sometimes when I rest my gun. This goes for my 10.5" to my 16" suppressed or not.

    I see comments about how great my new gun is, though I haven't shot it… Get out and shoot it. Even though I have a distaste for Bushmaster since my last two some years ago and the way they handled my numerous issues and one catastrophic failure, the reality is it should work, especially for someone new to the AR as they'll likely not shoot enough rounds to break it. Should there be issues, a new BCG, a H or H2 buffer (which it should have come with but doesn't due to them assuming a commercial grade buyer will shoot the weakest of ammo, so they go light and open up the gas ports) restaking the gas key, etc., are all very simple, easy fixes. Just follow this link and it'll get about anything in spec up and running and is also a good idea to do from day one - "Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!" - M4Carbine.net Forums

    There seems to be a whole heck of a lot of opinions based on things someone heard from "a guy" but not really based on much personal experience. There's an active thread over on m4carbine right now about regurgitated M4 myths we've heard repeated over the years. I can't really speak for anyone else, but any statement I make about the firearm being discussed comes from my own personal experience and many, many thousands of rounds per year. If I have not witnessed something with my own two eyes from start to finish, I don't pass it on or quote it as fact.

    You know, just to prove a point, I'm not cleaning my SR15 until I get back from the next trip, I won't wipe it down before I go, just hit it with some lube. As of now, let's underestimate and say it has 700 rounds through it without cleaning, just a quick shot of Slip EWL before each day of shooting. I've regularly hit 1,500 or more before a cleaning, and that cleaning is really nothing more than a good wipe down of the BCG and inside of the upper receiver. Like I said, the only reason I ever really clean my ARs is because they stink and the build up is starting to come out at certain points.

    I just don't understand some of this talk about choosing a gun because of cleanings. I don't care if I was in the middle of the desert in a constant firefight, I could make 2 minutes to open the gun, wipe the bcg with my shirt if I had to, squirt some lube on it and get back in the fight…..as unrealistic as any of that is. I keep two of those small lube pouches that come with some handguns in the grip of my ARs. Absolute worst case scenario, and I don't have a small bottle of Slip, I can pull one of those out, squirt it in there and drive on. Filth and build up have very little to do with whether a modern AR will run or not, it comes down to it being lubed so it can separate that gunk from the internals and it can function as it's supposed to.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  15. #89
    Distinguished Member Array pirate's Avatar
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    A really good, experienced and trained shooter with any one of these rifles mentioned or shown here will be a hard man to deal with in a fight. Its the man pulling the trigger that I am concerned with, not so much the rifle.











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  16. #90
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    +1 to pirate.
    Each weapon has its own quirks, but all were designed to significantly reduce an opponent's time on earth as quickly as possible. Hell, if you're really concerned about having enough "stoppin' powah" grab yourself a Saiga 12 load her with slugs and rest easy knowing if bad guys ever learn to train bears to rob people you'll be adequately armed.

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