Which assault rifle?

This is a discussion on Which assault rifle? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by C hawk Glock Your response comes from an area of lacking in experience and knowledge. I forgive you for that, as some ...

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  1. #91
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C hawk Glock View Post
    Your response comes from an area of lacking in experience and knowledge. I forgive you for that, as some times we (me as well) all have lessons to learn. Heck I know quite a bit about some firearms, but every single day there are a couple DC members who have the experience and willingness to share with others.

    Like Pirate I own both platforms and have shot them extensively. Just because I have my opinions on my own SHTF firearm does not mean each person would agree, but to question the reliability of the AK platform compared to AR's is laughable. My AK will eat corrosive or non corrosive ammo all day long and I would feel very comfortable shooting 25 rounds of either before cleaning. I would argue to say that my AK could do 1,000 rounds if god forbid it came to it. Do you feel that confident in your AR? Well do yah?
    A couple of mine have gone over double that with no cleaning, so...yes, I'm confident in my AR's.

    No offense, but the common misperception that the AR system is fragile and needs constant attention is about as bad as the AK is an inaccurate platform.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    A couple of mine have gone over double that with no cleaning, so...yes, I'm confident in my AR's.

    No offense, but the common misperception that the AR system is fragile and needs constant attention is about as bad as the AK is an inaccurate platform.
    May I ask why you would do that? 2,000 rounds through my AR's without cleaning is borderline neglect in my household.
    Ccccccc what? Ccccccccccc Hawks!

  4. #93
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    To see if I could, for starters; I wanted to see if there was something to the myth that AR's are fragile beasts, and must be pampered. What I learned proved it to be just that--a myth.

    And as far as I could tell, there was no adverse effect on accuracy, or on relaibility down the line, either (thousands more rounds have gone through 'em both after the test as well). Neither of the rifles were harmed.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  5. #94
    Distinguished Member Array pirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    There seems to be a whole heck of a lot of opinions based on things someone heard from "a guy" but not really based on much personal experience. There's an active thread over on m4carbine right now about regurgitated M4 myths we've heard repeated over the years. I can't really speak for anyone else, but any statement I make about the firearm being discussed comes from my own personal experience and many, many thousands of rounds per year. If I have not witnessed something with my own two eyes from start to finish, I don't pass it on or quote it as fact.
    Come on brother, you know if some of these guys don't post second hand hearsay BS they read somewhere or heard their brother in-law say what's the armchair QB going to post about on a firearms forum?

    Words to the wise for all of us......Shoot more type less!
    Last edited by pirate; July 31st, 2011 at 10:07 PM.
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  6. #95
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    A rifle (an AR in this case) is a machine.

    There is no benefit to the reliability of any machine by not lubricating and occasionally cleaning.

    AR's have been stopped by excessive fouling (typically combined with a lack of lube). It can and occasionally does happen. To me, cleaning and lubing after reasonable intervals just flat out makes sense.

    It makes the same kind of sense changing the oil in your car does. If a rifle is relegated to paper-punching duty exclusively, then I wouldn't care as much. Paper doesn't shoot back if my gun doesn't go "bang".

    However, for me, I view my AR's and other weapons as having a potentially defensive role....as in defending me and my family. That being the case, proper field striping, cleaning and lubing is a nonnegotiable....and doing so in a manner that the machine in question (an AR15) benefits from in terms of reliability. Cleaning and lubing is also a good opportunity to see if there is any excessive wear, or a potential weakness in a component. All machines can and do wear/break and taking a good look occasionally can prevent one from learning of this weakness while engaged on the 2-way range.


    AR's can handle a LOT of shooting, so is it likely the average shooter is really stressing their guns to a huge extent? Probably not. I'm also lot real likely to get in to a car accident this afternoon, however, if I were to, I'm looking for as close to 100% possibility my seat belt and airbag work. The higher the stakes, the more reliability matters.

    Not everyone feels the same about their guns. Some go bonkers if their gun gets a tiny scratch on it. Some will shoot their guns in to the dirt. Some guys collect and target shoot, others have guns that include defensive response options. In the case of the later, cleaning and lubing appropriately is little more than common sense and an extremely small price to pay for as much assurance of reliability as possible.
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  7. #96
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Regular intervals is fine, but what intervals is that? To me, it's about every 1,000 rounds at a minimum. I lube before each day of shooting. Never had a gun become anything more than sluggish due to fouling. A little lube fixed that immediately. It won't affect function or accuracy. Getting hot will affect accuracy though to an extent.

    Currently, I'm making a living off of my ARs, so it's somewhat important to me that they work. They are also defensive rifles as I always have one close by and in my car, so again, it's somewhat important to me that they work. I see my rifles work past 1,000 rounds without cleaning sometimes a couple times a month and sometimes more than one of them.

    I'm all for guys that like a clean gun, but know why you're cleaning them. Some believe it will fail because that's what they were taught. Some are using cheaper guns with out of spec chambers or weak extractors that will gunk up and possibly fail. Others do it because they're OCD and just don't want to put it away for three or four months filthy. We just all need to recognize that a quality AR will not fail within a couple thousand rounds or even FAR more as long as it's lubed correctly.

    I've found that maybe 4 out of 5 AR shooters (not just owners) that I know, still believe some sort of old time myth and it affects the way they do things. The other 1 out 5 decided to try it for themselves and figured out it was nothing more than BS.

    So, for anyone that repeats all these myths, my question is, how many times have our personally had a failure due to not cleaning that was absolutely without a doubt due to not cleaning but was still lubed properly? My guess is none or the gun in question was a problem to begin with. This isn't directed at anyone here, just so something I would ask anyone repeating these myths as I'd suspect 99% just hear it and pass it on without ever attempting to see if it's true or not.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  8. #97
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    Exclamation Calvalry

    Quote Originally Posted by SpencerB View Post
    I vote AR
    "Engineers can grunt, but grunts can not engineer"

  9. #98
    Nix
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Others do it because they're OCD and just don't want to put it away for three or four months filthy.
    Uh, that would be me. I can't remember who first told me that if "you take care of your weapon, your weapon will take care of you", but he made sense when he said it.

    But then I've also seen AR's fail. I remember one cold & nasty day when we were out at the range. Heavy rain, cold rain, pounding rain....and sand. Lots of wet, adherent sand that found it's way into everything after a good crawl through it. I'd guess that at least 40% of the trigger pullers had their weapons fail that day, especially after mag changes. Maybe more than 40%. These were USA M4's made by some company called Colt.

    I kept my M4 shooting, but that's what happens when one is OCD about cleaning his or her weapon and magazines.

  10. #99
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Calvalry

    Quote Originally Posted by DennonADTR View Post
    "Engineers can grunt, but grunts can not engineer"
    Welcome to the forum! Ummmm were you trying to say CAVALRY or CALVARY (where Jesus was crucified)?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #100
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nix View Post
    Uh, that would be me. I can't remember who first told me that if "you take care of your weapon, your weapon will take care of you", but he made sense when he said it.

    But then I've also seen AR's fail. I remember one cold & nasty day when we were out at the range. Heavy rain, cold rain, pounding rain....and sand. Lots of wet, adherent sand that found it's way into everything after a good crawl through it. I'd guess that at least 40% of the trigger pullers had their weapons fail that day, especially after mag changes. Maybe more than 40%. These were USA M4's made by some company called Colt.

    I kept my M4 shooting, but that's what happens when one is OCD about cleaning his or her weapon and magazines.
    Mud and dirt are a whole nother story. We were discussing fouling and gunk. When met with environmental filth, that can be more problematic. I clean my work guns, by the way.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  12. #101
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    Have not read the responses as I am supposed to be cleaning up from cooking a big messy curry, but I can't stand that saying assault rifle. Isn't your pinky finger something you can assault with?

    Now to my messy stove.

    c

  13. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Mud and dirt are a whole nother story. We were discussing fouling and gunk. When met with environmental filth, that can be more problematic. I clean my work guns, by the way.
    I dunno, I was always taught that fouling and gunk ATTRACT mud and dirt and then compound those problems. That's one reason I had the entire interior of my M1A coated with NP3 by ROBAR and the exterior coated with the black ROGARD finish. Between the two surfaces that touch molecules strip away and make the rifle self-lubricating. When I'm done shooting all that is required in the way of cleaning is to disassemble (field strip) and simply wipe down the parts with a soft rag. Go to the site and check out the firearms finishes: Robar's Firearm Finishes and see for yourself. I'll more than likely have other guns given this treatment.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  14. #103
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    Alas, that AR was gone when I went back for it. Darn.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  15. #104
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    No doubt NP3 and similar finishes are a fine choice. The other thing we have going that many overlook or don't truly understand is now have options beyond CLP. Choices like Slip EWL and Froglube will separate and lift the dirt and grime off of the surface while CLP will mix with it. These things can make a huge difference.

    Nothing wrong with a quick wipe down after shooting if you feel you need to. Like I said, I keep my work guns clean, for the most part. My range guns I don't worry about that much.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  16. #105
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    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

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