I found a site showing the actual anatomy of a hog. It is interesting, if nothing else.
I doubt that it will change anyone's mind, but it does show that the vitals of a hog a different than most people realize.
I can down load 30 06 loads to hunt squirrels with, but that doesn't make it a varmits rifle either.
See how most companies choose to list it. To say that it is not, to make it into something that you want it to be is naieve.
New York/ Connecticut were people have reported seeing Large Mountainlionish cats for the past decade. These agencies have denied they exist even though people see them regularly. Yet your saying they have done ballistics studies on .223 and whitetails only to come to the conclussion that it is not a viable deer cartridge. If you would show me these studies I would sure like to see them.
I'm not sure water can penetrate hard sloped ground with enough effect to bring fertile growth. At some point and time, the effort to plow and cultivate a field of rocks becomes an exercise in futility.
PS this came from Professional Hunters.
The Myth: The .223 is too Light for Deer
The .223 is too light for deer.
I read somewhere that today’s premium bullets represent the greatest advance in big game hunting technology since the widespread use of the optical sight, and I agree 100 percent. Many of the myths that we face today are the product of outdated truth—what your grandfather or Elmer Keith said 50 years ago may not be true today. The fact is that today’s premium bullets penetrate deeper, expand more reliably and stay together better than ever before. This has been a game-changer for small calibers (note the resurgence in the .243 Winchester). It’s not that the laws of physics or reason no longer apply, but the fact is that bullet technology has readjusted the scale of which calibers are appropriate for what game. Thanks to these advances, .224 caliber bullets are no longer designed with either varmints or Soviet infantry in-mind. Let’s take a look at factory ammo.
More snipits from the article that you may find interesting.
Ok, so we heard from the nerds in the lab coats, what do the guys that shoot deer for a living think? My friend John Shaw has killed more deer than anyone I know—he’s managed an exotic game farm, worked on a Texas whitetail ranch, passionately hunts whitetail in numerous states using the .224 and .22-250. He has also culled scores of does for meat, depredation, and management purposes. John has this to say:
“I rely on my 22 centerfires more so than any other caliber. Low recoil and the typical pinpoint accuracy found in rifles of .224 caliber allow for careful shot placement. If you treat hunting with your .223 much like bow hunting and wait for the perfect shot, there is no reason that this caliber should not be considered for many applications. However, bullet choice is a major factor. Shots to the central nervous system with any type of bullet will work but I recommend premium, controlled expansion bullets, such as Barnes Triple Shocks, Nosler Partitions, and Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. Typically, I keep shots under 200 yards but animals hit in the shoulder, heart, and lung region with a quality bullet expire quickly."
I didn't read the article. Not going to. Sir, I have killed game both big and small all over the world. I have taken game weighing over 500 lbs on the hoof at distances over 100 yards with an open sighted handgun, and taken both 4 legged and two legged animals with the 5.56, so I hardly think I need to read someones opinion on the cartridge.
I have said it before, and, I'll say it again. The 223 is capable of killing deer. But, it is not the best choice. Unless head shots are taken, it is irresponsible stunt shooting that only a tin headed greenhorn would pursue.
If you really want to read some good stuff, may I suggest Townsend Wheeler, Peter Hathaway Capstick, Brian Peerce, Elmer Keith, Jack O'Conner?
Your sins can be forgiven, if you repent and come back to reality.
Sooooo.... back to my original question, if you were using 5.56 and 7.62 for hogs, which bullet for each would you choose? Remember these are both magazine fed, semi autos. The 5.56 through my ARs, mostly the 16", and the 308 through my SCAR 17.
I understand the responses and though I didn't want it to g this route, it was obvious that it would. I'm all for you guys keeping up the conversation, but if someone could let me know the best ammo for each, I'd really appreciate it.
For me, I have no issues with using 5.56 on hogs. I'd rather use my 308, and ultimately will, but since we do/will most often hunt suppressed for a few different reasons, one obviously being the noise and the other that we use night vision now and then and using a suppressor is the best way to suppress flash, I'll most likely be using the 5.56, at least half the time and at night.
Anyway, I'm confident in my ability and pretty much everyone I know around here hunts hogs, some as large as 350+, with their ARs chambered in 5.56 and they loose very few. If I thought I would be taking most shots from 200 meters or more, I'd definitely go with the 308, but since most will be within 10 to 150 meters with a few long shots now and then, I know the 5.56 is more than adequate with the right ammo and shot placement. I also know these bullets perform very different on a person than they do an animal.
I can talk 5.56 ballistics and human anatomy all day, with references, and explain all the things we want to happen and most likely what will at given distances per load. Change the intended target to a thick-skinned animal youth and I'm completely out of my element. I'm not sure what ammo is best and I'm also not sure what exactly we want to happen. I know on the human body we want rapid upset of the bullet within 2" to 3" until about 8" or 9" and has a fragmentation area of about 4" to 5" wide with a minimum 12" to 14" of total penetration. Seeing as the average male torso in the US is only about 9.5" from front to back and the center of the heart is only about 4" deep, we need our offensive/defensive loads to perform a very specific task to accomplish incapacitation as quickly as possible.
I know that with a hog or deer, we need much deeper penetration and my wild guess would be we do not want the bullet to violently fragment within a few inches. This makes me wonder how good m855 would be for hogs seeing as they penetrate about 8" or more before their fragmentation can really do much more damage. Or, do I want a barrier blind load thats designed to penetrate barriers (obviously) that works well through auto glass, for example. I know of at least two companies that offer a "tactical" bonded bullet and also offer a hunting bullet with another name, but they're actually using the exact same bullet.
So, would I be better off with 75 grain TAP in 5.56 or would I be better of with a barrier blind 55 or 62 grain Federal bonded 5.56? I hate to use the defensive ammo as my examples here, but it's the best way. Can relate to the subject of hunting ammo and it helps me understand it a bit more.
Like I said, I'll most likely switch the the 308 as my main hog gun and it's what I'll use for deer either way, but for now, it's 5.56 for hogs at least half the time. Also, any time I talk about 5.56, I mean 5.56, not 223. 200 fps makes a good bit of difference with these bullets, especially for fragmentation range, and I don't use 223 for anything right now except punching paper.
Thanks.... and feel free to continue on with the 223 vs xyz for hunting.
Click on the article posted above, the article has a list of bullets and velocities recommend for large game if one is using a .223.
With big game bullets ranging in weight from 55gr. to 70gr., it’s versatile at a range of velocities. After researching this a while, a common bullet to see pop up over and over again is the Barnes 62 grain TSX.
Jon, I'd still opt for a very well put together bullet for hogs. Some of those suckers have a hard coat of mud packed into their fur, and that combined with thick grissel underneath make them pretty tough. I'm still thinking a bullet like Barnes.
Deer are much easier. The 64 weight Power Point as mentioned by a few already gets my nod.
Everything hinges on perfect shot placement. Like I said, I will use my AR this year, but I am only taking head shots.
Thanks guys. Are you talking about the Hog anatomy article Zaaci posted? (ETA - I see, the article you posted, thanks. I'll look at it now). The TSX is what I was thinking too, plus it's extremely accurate for me. I guess I missed it being mentioned when reading back through the thread, sorry about that. Head shots are my preference as well, whether using my AR or my Barrett, which is going with me on the next hog hunt...