Hunting with a 5.56 - Page 4

Hunting with a 5.56

This is a discussion on Hunting with a 5.56 within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by zacii This little piggy went to market Thats pretty amazing. How far air rifles have come. It wasnt the best choice, but ...

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Thread: Hunting with a 5.56

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    Thats pretty amazing. How far air rifles have come. It wasnt the best choice, but if its used within its limitations by a skilled shooter willing to take the right shot it will work.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    I found a site showing the actual anatomy of a hog. It is interesting, if nothing else.

    I doubt that it will change anyone's mind, but it does show that the vitals of a hog a different than most people realize.

    http://www.texasboars.com/anatomy.html
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post

    "To simple say " varmint" round shows a very stubborn way of thinking."

    See how most companies choose to list it. To say that it is not, to make it into something that you want it to be is naieve.
    Just saw a Hornady ad advertising their "Superformance Varmint" ammo and they list it as being available in the following calibers; 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 22-250, 243 Win.

    They end the commercial by saying, "Supercharge your varmint rifle."

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    companies make Varmint bullets for .30 caliber guns does that make it a varmint rifle?


    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    Just saw a Hornady ad advertising their "Superformance Varmint" ammo and they list it as being available in the following calibers; 222 Rem, 223 Rem, 22-250, 243 Win.

    They end the commercial by saying, "Supercharge your varmint rifle."
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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  5. #50
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I can down load 30 06 loads to hunt squirrels with, but that doesn't make it a varmits rifle either.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    You could make a case that the .22 short is an effective deer round. That dont make it so.


    Other people on this forum are using .22 for self defense. That dont mean its the best cartridge for self defense.
    Not Sure why you are bring this up. This thread is based on .223 as used to hunt Deer. Many people have used it and used it very successfully as a deer cartrdge.

    See how most companies choose to list it. To say that it is not, to make it into something that you want it to be is naieve.



    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Did you ever even once, wonder why it was banned? Did it ever even occur to you that they used real data and facts to base their decision?.
    Same question right back at ya! Do you have any facts any research that shows why it was not allowed? These same people banned the use of crossbows. Now are crossbows inadequate as well? If so then are you against hunting with a bow, since a cross bow produces similiar results to a compound bow on a deer. The reason why many states banned crossbows was, wait for it, it wasn't "Traditional enough". Even though compound bows (invented probably in 1940, 50's or 1960?s") have been around so much longer than the crossbow. I would bet that if you where to truely find the reason why .223 was banned in some states vs others was probably due to the same reasoning used by Jim Zumbo in his blog. If game management agency were truely worried about deer running away and wounded, because a platform is more likely to cause more suffering or miss a vital, then all archery hunting would be banned.

    New York/ Connecticut were people have reported seeing Large Mountainlionish cats for the past decade. These agencies have denied they exist even though people see them regularly. Yet your saying they have done ballistics studies on .223 and whitetails only to come to the conclussion that it is not a viable deer cartridge. If you would show me these studies I would sure like to see them.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    My guess would be for the same reason that some states allow two men to marry each other. They dont know any better.
    Hahaha

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Because they have so many deer that they just want them shot and they dont care if they run off or not? Just a guess..
    You know this for a fact? That sounds a lot like something somebody from PETA would say. I try my hardest to get the best clean kill possible, but sometimes deer run off. I have had deer run off from a 12 gauge even though the slug hit the deer right in the bread basket. It doesnt' matter if it was a .223, a .308 or an Arrow its going happen. I hunt to put food on the table. I do not hunt to hang it on the wall, or for my next christmas card. I hunt so that I can eat Venison. Hunting is not fair for the deer. If it were fair, then the deer would be armed and shooting back. IF the OP wants to go out and hunt with a .223 with a 30 round magazine and its legal by all means go for it. I will be out there this year with My Scar 16 doing exactly that.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Thats such a simple answer that I am suprised you even asked it. Thats what Police depts use. I carry an AR, a shot gun and a .308. When I dispatch deer,I use a Glock 21. Since most cops only have a .223, thats what they will use when they dont want to get blood or hair on their boots or a deer is flopping around making a difficult target.

    I cull deer. We whacked 17 of them at our local airport with in two days. There were 4 other cops,myself and 2 AG&F officers along two other people that drug them to the trucks and loaded them up. Guess what. NONE of them use used .223's.

    You are taking this too personal. I have spoke all I'm going to speak on this matter.

    Go out and use your .223. I dont care. Shoot some and tell us all how it is a stellar cartridge for killing deer.
    I'm not taking this personal I just don't see any facts or logic coming from you or Glock, but rather personal opinion and possible urban legends as to why something is the way it is.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  7. #52
    OD*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Even though compound bows (when the 1960?s") around so much longer than the crossbow.
    Don't you mean the crossbow has been around so much longer than the compound?
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  8. #53
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    Don't you mean the crossbow has been around so much longer than the compound?
    LOL
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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  9. #54
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    I'm not sure water can penetrate hard sloped ground with enough effect to bring fertile growth. At some point and time, the effort to plow and cultivate a field of rocks becomes an exercise in futility.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I'm not sure water can penetrate hard sloped ground with enough effect to bring fertile growth. At some point and time, the effort to plow and cultivate a field of rocks becomes an exercise in futility.
    And here is a real article from somebody who has actually done good research.

    PS this came from Professional Hunters.

    The Myth: The .223 is too Light for Deer

    The Myth
    The .223 is too light for deer.

    The Facts
    I read somewhere that today’s premium bullets represent the greatest advance in big game hunting technology since the widespread use of the optical sight, and I agree 100 percent. Many of the myths that we face today are the product of outdated truth—what your grandfather or Elmer Keith said 50 years ago may not be true today. The fact is that today’s premium bullets penetrate deeper, expand more reliably and stay together better than ever before. This has been a game-changer for small calibers (note the resurgence in the .243 Winchester). It’s not that the laws of physics or reason no longer apply, but the fact is that bullet technology has readjusted the scale of which calibers are appropriate for what game. Thanks to these advances, .224 caliber bullets are no longer designed with either varmints or Soviet infantry in-mind. Let’s take a look at factory ammo.

    More snipits from the article that you may find interesting.

    Ok, so we heard from the nerds in the lab coats, what do the guys that shoot deer for a living think? My friend John Shaw has killed more deer than anyone I know—he’s managed an exotic game farm, worked on a Texas whitetail ranch, passionately hunts whitetail in numerous states using the .224 and .22-250. He has also culled scores of does for meat, depredation, and management purposes. John has this to say:

    “I rely on my 22 centerfires more so than any other caliber. Low recoil and the typical pinpoint accuracy found in rifles of .224 caliber allow for careful shot placement. If you treat hunting with your .223 much like bow hunting and wait for the perfect shot, there is no reason that this caliber should not be considered for many applications. However, bullet choice is a major factor. Shots to the central nervous system with any type of bullet will work but I recommend premium, controlled expansion bullets, such as Barnes Triple Shocks, Nosler Partitions, and Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. Typically, I keep shots under 200 yards but animals hit in the shoulder, heart, and lung region with a quality bullet expire quickly."
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I didn't read the article. Not going to. Sir, I have killed game both big and small all over the world. I have taken game weighing over 500 lbs on the hoof at distances over 100 yards with an open sighted handgun, and taken both 4 legged and two legged animals with the 5.56, so I hardly think I need to read someones opinion on the cartridge.

    I have said it before, and, I'll say it again. The 223 is capable of killing deer. But, it is not the best choice. Unless head shots are taken, it is irresponsible stunt shooting that only a tin headed greenhorn would pursue.

    If you really want to read some good stuff, may I suggest Townsend Wheeler, Peter Hathaway Capstick, Brian Peerce, Elmer Keith, Jack O'Conner?

    Your sins can be forgiven, if you repent and come back to reality.
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  12. #57
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Sooooo.... back to my original question, if you were using 5.56 and 7.62 for hogs, which bullet for each would you choose? Remember these are both magazine fed, semi autos. The 5.56 through my ARs, mostly the 16", and the 308 through my SCAR 17.

    I understand the responses and though I didn't want it to g this route, it was obvious that it would. I'm all for you guys keeping up the conversation, but if someone could let me know the best ammo for each, I'd really appreciate it.

    For me, I have no issues with using 5.56 on hogs. I'd rather use my 308, and ultimately will, but since we do/will most often hunt suppressed for a few different reasons, one obviously being the noise and the other that we use night vision now and then and using a suppressor is the best way to suppress flash, I'll most likely be using the 5.56, at least half the time and at night.

    Anyway, I'm confident in my ability and pretty much everyone I know around here hunts hogs, some as large as 350+, with their ARs chambered in 5.56 and they loose very few. If I thought I would be taking most shots from 200 meters or more, I'd definitely go with the 308, but since most will be within 10 to 150 meters with a few long shots now and then, I know the 5.56 is more than adequate with the right ammo and shot placement. I also know these bullets perform very different on a person than they do an animal.

    I can talk 5.56 ballistics and human anatomy all day, with references, and explain all the things we want to happen and most likely what will at given distances per load. Change the intended target to a thick-skinned animal youth and I'm completely out of my element. I'm not sure what ammo is best and I'm also not sure what exactly we want to happen. I know on the human body we want rapid upset of the bullet within 2" to 3" until about 8" or 9" and has a fragmentation area of about 4" to 5" wide with a minimum 12" to 14" of total penetration. Seeing as the average male torso in the US is only about 9.5" from front to back and the center of the heart is only about 4" deep, we need our offensive/defensive loads to perform a very specific task to accomplish incapacitation as quickly as possible.

    I know that with a hog or deer, we need much deeper penetration and my wild guess would be we do not want the bullet to violently fragment within a few inches. This makes me wonder how good m855 would be for hogs seeing as they penetrate about 8" or more before their fragmentation can really do much more damage. Or, do I want a barrier blind load thats designed to penetrate barriers (obviously) that works well through auto glass, for example. I know of at least two companies that offer a "tactical" bonded bullet and also offer a hunting bullet with another name, but they're actually using the exact same bullet.

    So, would I be better off with 75 grain TAP in 5.56 or would I be better of with a barrier blind 55 or 62 grain Federal bonded 5.56? I hate to use the defensive ammo as my examples here, but it's the best way. Can relate to the subject of hunting ammo and it helps me understand it a bit more.

    Like I said, I'll most likely switch the the 308 as my main hog gun and it's what I'll use for deer either way, but for now, it's 5.56 for hogs at least half the time. Also, any time I talk about 5.56, I mean 5.56, not 223. 200 fps makes a good bit of difference with these bullets, especially for fragmentation range, and I don't use 223 for anything right now except punching paper.

    Thanks.... and feel free to continue on with the 223 vs xyz for hunting.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  13. #58
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Jon,
    Click on the article posted above, the article has a list of bullets and velocities recommend for large game if one is using a .223.

    With big game bullets ranging in weight from 55gr. to 70gr., it’s versatile at a range of velocities. After researching this a while, a common bullet to see pop up over and over again is the Barnes 62 grain TSX.
    Cuda66 likes this.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  14. #59
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    Jon, I'd still opt for a very well put together bullet for hogs. Some of those suckers have a hard coat of mud packed into their fur, and that combined with thick grissel underneath make them pretty tough. I'm still thinking a bullet like Barnes.

    Deer are much easier. The 64 weight Power Point as mentioned by a few already gets my nod.
    Everything hinges on perfect shot placement. Like I said, I will use my AR this year, but I am only taking head shots.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. Are you talking about the Hog anatomy article Zaaci posted? (ETA - I see, the article you posted, thanks. I'll look at it now). The TSX is what I was thinking too, plus it's extremely accurate for me. I guess I missed it being mentioned when reading back through the thread, sorry about that. Head shots are my preference as well, whether using my AR or my Barrett, which is going with me on the next hog hunt...
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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