Self Defense Ammo for .223?

This is a discussion on Self Defense Ammo for .223? within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by 10thmtn Or - just shoot a .30-something rifle, and don't worry about it. You don't always know ahead of time if you ...

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Thread: Self Defense Ammo for .223?

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Or - just shoot a .30-something rifle, and don't worry about it.

    You don't always know ahead of time if you need to defeat a barrier, or not.


    That's why you just load it up with a good barrier blind and drive on.... I really like my 7.62's, there's no denying they are very effective rifles. For ME, even with my SCAR H which is a couple pounds lighter than most alternatives and softer recoiling, I'm considerably slower for my first round hits and my follow up shots, and that's compared to a fully loaded 16" AR. There's just no way around it for me. I'll eventually cut the SCAR to 13", which should give me a little more speed and maneuverability.

    If I was law enforcement in a rural area, for example, I'd prefer a 7.62 to the 5.56 not only due to human threats at distance, but the animals that may need to be dealt with. Though there's obviously a difference, I don't think there's nearly as much of a difference between 5.56 and 7.62x51 on human targets at a couple hundred meters or less as people make it sound. BUT, that difference becomes much more noticeable when we're talking about animals where the bullet needs to punch through a much thicker skin/hide and penetrate much deeper.

    I'm all for the right tool for the job, and FOR ME, against another human being, there's really nothing that compares to a good AR loaded with a quality 5.56 round. Ive run my SCAR H at a couple carbine matches and a semi auto precision class. The results were pretty decent for that type of rifle and I surely wouldn't want to go up against it, but that first round hit always bothers me. I've been in enough fights to know that the guy that lands the first hit has a serious advantage at that point. I can land the first hit much faster with my fully loaded ARs. Give me a lot of time and expense (for ammo) and I'm sure I'd improve my speed with the 7.62.

    Even 75gr TAP will defeat some barriers and will work against vehicles, just not as well as a barrier blind load will.

    There's also a reason that I doubt any of us could give even two examples of entry teams using the 7.62 in the US.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Silly me as well... I'm the one that said it didn't!

    Edit - are you sure it has a cannelure? I just looked up some images and didn't see it and here's a thread on m4c where it's also mentioned that it does not have one.

    Hornady SuperPerformance 5.56 NATO 75GR OTM now with pics... - M4Carbine.net Forums
    Yep, I'm 100% sure.

    Give me a minute, and I'll post a couple pictures.

    Edit: The rounds in the photo are the "Superformance Varmint." I have the "Superformance Match." You'll see the difference in the pictures.

    P.S. Another noticeable difference: The Varmint round uses a VMAX bullet. The Match round uses an "A-MAX" bullet.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  4. #63
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    It's way easier to choose defensive ammo for my AK, as there aren't NEARLY as many options :) That's the problem with .223/5.56 loads. Too many options, and then we (atleast I) get confused about which is better, twist rates to keep in mind, .223 vs. 5.56, fragmentation vs. expansion, barrier penetration... jeez...
    That's why Dr. Roberts posts this on his "Duty Ammunition" threads:

    "Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. I would much rather go into battle with a guy who practices 15,000 rounds a year using generic 55 gr FMJ out of his old M16A1 than with some guy that has the latest state-of-the-art ammo and rifle, but only shoots 500 rounds a year. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of agency duty ammunition selection, below are the state of the art choices in 5.56 mm/.223."
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    Yep, I'm 100% sure.

    Give me a minute, and I'll post a couple pictures.

    Edit: The rounds in the photo are the "Superformance Varmint." I have the "Superformance Match." You'll see the difference in the pictures.

    P.S. Another noticeable difference: The Varmint round uses a VMAX bullet. The Match round uses an "A-MAX" bullet.
    Cool, thanks. Take a look at that thread I linked on m4carbine and let me know what the ammo they're talking about is and the difference. I'm interested just to know.

    Also, what do you use this ammo for? I'm just asking because I have defensive rounds, hunting rounds and training rounds. Where does this one fit in?
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  6. #65
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    The battery in my Nikon is recharging, so these iPhone pics will have to suffice for now.

    Glock_23_0016.jpg

    Glock_23_0017.jpg

    Glock_23_0018.jpg

    Glock_23_0012.jpg
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  7. #66
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Cool, thanks. Take a look at that thread I linked on m4carbine and let me know what the ammo they're talking about is and the difference. I'm interested just to know.

    Also, what do you use this ammo for? I'm just asking because I have defensive rounds, hunting rounds and training rounds. Where does this one fit in?
    These fall in the "Home Defense" category which is the only purpose of my rifle at the moment.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    I suppose I should add that the only purpose for my rifle(s) are area defense outside the home in the event of civil disorder. I will not move indoors with it (use a handgun for that), nor will I cover the barricaded safe-room door with it (use a shotgun for that).

    Thus, if I am going to use the rifle, then barrier penetration does become an issue. I'd much rather use a plain ol' .30-something bullet for that, than a fancy 5.56 or .223 bullet. As far as rate of fire goes - I live in suburbia, with homes all around, so any rifle shot taken will need to be carefully aimed, so there is no effective difference between my rate of fire with a lever gun vs a semi auto. And as far as getting the first shot off - a lever gun is lighter than most semi-autos, so I think they should both do well as far as that consideration goes. Ammo capacity does not concern me - if I need more than a few rifle shots to solve my immediate problem, I'm in deeper than a civilian should ever be - and besides, you can top her off as you go.

    Not arguing - just explaining my thinking for others that might be going through this same thought process. I gave a lot of thought to what ammo to use in my Mini 14 (with barriers in mind), but in the end, decided that I'd be better off with a .30-30 lever gun. I'm keeping the Mini, since 5.56 and .223 is everywhere, but if I have to grab one of them, I'm grabbing the Marlin first.

    Either are good choices of course - far more important is the person running the gun.

    PS - Sorry for the thread highjack.

    I'll go sit quietly in the corner now and shut up.
    Last edited by 10thmtn; November 2nd, 2011 at 04:52 PM. Reason: added "PS"
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  9. #68
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I hear ya and definitely get it... Makes me miss my 30-30.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  10. #69
    RKM
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    Well I think I decided to keep my .223 75gr TAP for HD use. While my Hk USP is my primary HD gun, I still keep the AR, AK and Mossberg500 ready to go. Maybe a bit overboard. I'll be killed before I choose which gun to use..... Hahaha nah, they do all have their own purpose. USP and 500 are primary HD gun. AK and AR are my "break down of society" guns.

    Anyway, .223 75gr TAP for HD (since it's difficult to get or MAD expensive for the 5.56 version of TAP), and then if for some horrific reason I need to defend from a distance, I'm going to pick up Mk318. Reasons being it's 62gr, so my 1:9 will like it better at great distance than TAP. Also it seems to have a longer fragmentation range than TAP (at least in my barrel). It's affordable compared to all the name brands and it's also a good barrier blind round. I was really into the 5.56 50gr TSX by Black Hills, but the cheapest I've found it is $70 for a box of 50. That's too expensive me. For me I think other than TAP, mk318 will cover what I need in a defensvie carbine load. Plus I'll have my stash of PMC .223 FMJ and Federal XM193 but that's mainly for plinking.

    The AK is just loaded with 123gr JSP's. Simple as that.

    7.62x51 you say? I only have a .308 bolt gun. No AR10's or SCAR H's for me. (Though an M1-A is in my near future) My Savage bolt-gun is primarily just for targets. I shoot 168gr Federal OTM's but this time I want the OTM for it's accuracy, not it's fragmentation. I'm confident that that round would do well enough on a living target. I don't need anything special in .308

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array ront's Avatar
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    How about the .223 Winchester PDX1 Defender 60gr. Split Core?
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  12. #71
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ront View Post
    How about the .223 Winchester PDX1 Defender 60gr. Split Core?
    Rob_s and I emailed back and forth for a couple weeks recently when he was looking for a new defensive round to stock up on that could also be used for certain training and this came up. Neither of us knew a lot about it though other than the dual core. It should, by theory, expand nicely on soft tissue but still defeat lighter barriers. I'll look npinto it and post back if I find anything useful.

    There's another load we discussed to that was very inexpensive but compared nicely to TSX and TBBC but much less expensive and probably 90% as those two at least.

    Winchester also offers a Ranger T round. When comparing handgun rounds, the Ranger T Series is marginally better than SXT and PDX 1. If I remember correctly, PDX 1 is just SXT (not to be confused with Ranger T Series) in 20 round boxes and market towards civilians. I only mention this because I'm curious how this relates to the rifle loadings like the 223.

    I'll post back if I find anything interesting.

    Oh, 10thmtn, there's just as many options for 7.62. Hornady's catalog came the other day and they have 7.62 that fragments and penetrates to 11" to bonded that penetrates to 20" or more. We need a 7.62 ammo thread next! So, when we just loadit up with a .30, do we want fragmenting, expanding or deep penetrating? oh, it never ends!
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  13. #72
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Rob_s and I emailed back and forth for a couple weeks recently when he was looking for a new defensive round to stock up on that could also be used for certain training and this came up. Neither of us knew a lot about it though other than the dual core. It should, by theory, expand nicely on soft tissue but still defeat lighter barriers. I'll look npinto it and post back if I find anything useful.

    There's another load we discussed to that was very inexpensive but compared nicely to TSX and TBBC but much less expensive and probably 90% as those two at least.

    Winchester also offers a Ranger T round. When comparing handgun rounds, the Ranger T Series is marginally better than SXT and PDX 1. If I remember correctly, PDX 1 is just SXT (not to be confused with Ranger T Series) in 20 round boxes and market towards civilians. I only mention this because I'm curious how this relates to the rifle loadings like the 223.

    I'll post back if I find anything interesting.

    Oh, 10thmtn, there's just as many options for 7.62. Hornady's catalog came the other day and they have 7.62 that fragments and penetrates to 11" to bonded that penetrates to 20" or more. We need a 7.62 ammo thread next! So, when we just loadit up with a .30, do we want fragmenting, expanding or deep penetrating? oh, it never ends!
    Deep penetration and fragmentation!

    PDX1 isn't the Ranger-T SXT, by the way.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    Deep penetration and fragmentation!

    PDX1 isn't the Ranger-T SXT, by the way.
    PDX 1 uses the same bullet as SXT (bonded SXT, not standard). Well, I guess we should say that SXT bonded uses the PDX 1 bullet. Ranger T uses the enhanced bullet which has a wider hollow point than the SXT or PDX 1. From my understanding, the PDX 1 is the civilian marketed self defense ammo which comes in 20 round boxes. The SXT bonded is the FBI's choice, which uses the PDX 1 bullet. The Ranger T Series (not to be confused with the Ranger T Series SXT) is not a bonded bullet, but it also differs from the non-bonded SXT, in a good way.... ;)

    http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=95484
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  15. #74
    RKM
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    Are we talking about handgun bullets now? :) I carry DPX, handgun version of TSX.

    I did carry Ranger-T for awhile but I ended up shooting them all. I've seen a bunch of tests on them showing the clog a either only half expand or don't expand at all. If I wanted to carry FMJ, I'd carry FMJ. I do carry FMJ in my spare mag.

    Are we talking about handgun bullets?

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Yeah, sorry about that... I used it as an analogy then couldn't shut up!
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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