Self Defense Ammo for .223?

[RKM]

Also came across some good info awhile ago that I forgot ALL about. Some good options from Federal, all being .223 loadings in PDF form.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...qWWXZA&cad=rja

Hopefully that link works. If not, google "Federal .223 wound characteristics", it'll be the second result (PDF). I think the LE223T3 is the same, or basically same as the "TBBC". I was interested in the T223L TRU 64gr round a long time ago. Great performance in bare gel and most barriers, except glass.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[jonconsiglio]

Here's some good reading on ballistics

5.56 mm Duty Loads - M4Carbine.net Forums

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm (this is probably the best source of ballistics info in one place)

http://www.frfrogspad.com/ballisti.htm (links to multiple sections at bottom of the page)

http://forums.second-amendment.org/i...ic=3708.0;wap2 (this one is 9 pages but has repeats of other stuff posted)

And of course, The Ammo Oracle - http://ammo.ar15.com/

[bubbinator]

Just one reply in I saw a recommendation for Wolf Ammo-Russian junk. As a LE Armorer and graduate of the Ruger Armorer Course on the Mini-14-The absolute biggest issue the Ruger warranty folks deal with is Mini14s shooting Russian lacquer-coated ammo and gumming up the firing pins/extractors! The heat melts the "preservative" and your gun goes in the toilet! It may last 200 yrs in storage but 1 good shooting session your gun is glued shut! One of my most elder Gun Smith contacts had a full rack of AR-15 awaiting work-NO Ruger Mini14s ever. BTW I shoot a Kel-Tec SU-16C too.

[bubbinator]

zacii-I have a Kel-Tec SU16C that absoluely loves WW RAnger 60gr Nosler LEO ammo! It is sighted with a Bushnell Holo-site(Eotech w/o MilSpec cover) and other ammo is 1.5-2" with clear targets to focus on from a rest, but the WW RAngers went 5 in 1" +/- @100 yds more then once (don't have a lot to waste). They killed 2 deer DTR and stats on the web cite penetration near 7.62 levels @ 18" in Gel mediums.

[10thmtn]

Oh, 10thmtn, there's just as many options for 7.62. Hornady's catalog came the other day and they have 7.62 that fragments and penetrates to 11" to bonded that penetrates to 20" or more. We need a 7.62 ammo thread next! So, when we just loadit up with a .30, do we want fragmenting, expanding or deep penetrating? oh, it never ends!

Ha! Indeed, there are lots of options in .308 (7.62 x 51). Not nearly as many in .30-30, though. I originally thought I'd go with the LeveRevolution ammo, but given that I cannot see further than 150 yards in my area, I'll just stick with whatever JSPs I can find. I prefer the 170 gr, but the 150 gr will work too.

With the larger caliber and heavier weight, and the expansion inherent in the JSP design, there really isn't all that much to worry about with the old "thuty thuty." Which is good, because trying to figure out 5.56 vs .223, bullet weight, bullet length, bullet construction, barrel length, barrier/no barrier, etc etc made my head spin.

[bmcgilvray]

Would there truly be any .223 ammunition that would be bad if pressed into a self-defense role?

[AZ Hawk]

Would there truly be any .223 ammunition that would be bad if pressed into a self-defense role?

Technically speaking, yes. If you have to shoot through a door or leather couch or any other type of somewhat thick cover, there are many .223/5.56 rounds that just plain suck.

As with all other rifle calibers, some bullets are made for unobstructed long distance shots, some are made to penetrate barriers in CQC, some are made to penetrate armor, etc., etc.

In example: Someone enters your home, and you grab your carbine/rifle and chamber a round. The BG moves into the kitchen then hears you up and moving and decides to hide behind your counter. He then starts firing at you with his firearm.

Is 40 gr. VMAX good here? Is 75 gr. TAP good here?

If you have a really thick counter like I do, the answer is a resounding no.

You get the idea.

[AZ Hawk]

PDX 1 uses the same bullet as SXT (bonded SXT, not standard). Well, I guess we should say that SXT bonded uses the PDX 1 bullet. Ranger T uses the enhanced bullet which has a wider hollow point than the SXT or PDX 1. From my understanding, the PDX 1 is the civilian marketed self defense ammo which comes in 20 round boxes. The SXT bonded is the FBI's choice, which uses the PDX 1 bullet. The Ranger T Series (not to be confused with the Ranger T Series SXT) is not a bonded bullet, but it also differs from the non-bonded SXT, in a good way.... ;)

Winchester PDX1, SXT, Ranger T and Ranger Bonded confusion - AR15.Com Archive

That may be true in some cases, but the 180 gr. .40 S&W PDX1 uses an entirely new bullet. It's the same as the Winchester Q4369 which was the load developed for the FBI, and then Winchester marketed it as PDX1 to civilians.

Every other caliber and weight could be the SXT bonded as you say, but the 180 gr. is not.

[jonconsiglio]

That may be true in some cases, but the 180 gr. .40 S&W PDX1 uses an entirely new bullet. It's the same as the Winchester Q4369 which was the load developed for the FBI, and then Winchester marketed it as PDX1 to civilians.

Every other caliber and weight could be the SXT bonded as you say, but the 180 gr. is not.

...and either way, it's still not as good as Ranger T Series, so I just don't understand the point of the whole PDX1 or SXT thing when there's a superior round available. That's what I like about HST... It either is or it isn't HST.

[AZ Hawk]

...and either way, it's still not as good as Ranger T Series, so I just don't understand the point of the whole PDX1 or SXT thing when there's a superior round available. That's what I like about HST... It either is or it isn't HST.

The Q4369 load is just as effective as the Ranger-T with increased effectiveness through barriers; it really just depends if you prefer bonded or non-bonded bullets.

I tend to prefer bonded bullets as it virtually eliminates the chances of jacket/core separation, but I carry Speer Gold Dots.

[Frogbones]

I just went with 77 gr. Tactical OTM and called it a day for the .223 HD load.

[AZ Hawk]

After reading through a recent thread over at M4Carbine, I've decided to switch to the Federal Mk318 Mod-0 5.56 62 Grain SOST.

[AZ Hawk]

...and either way, it's still not as good as Ranger T Series, so I just don't understand the point of the whole PDX1 or SXT thing when there's a superior round available. That's what I like about HST... It either is or it isn't HST.

True.

I'll keep my Gold Dots.

[RKM]

For whatever Reason, Winchester tries to limit sales of Ranger-T to law enforcement. So I guess they decided to make a "civilian" version. Only difference between PDX1 and Ranger-T are the sharp "Talons". The ones on the PDX1 seem to stay tucked in instead of expand. I used to carry Ranger-T 230gr +P (non bonded) after seeing a bunch of bare gel tests. But once I started seeing it's performance in 4 layers of denim.... :( They almost never expanded. I switched to DPX, which has consistent deep penetration and expansion. Other rounds I'd carry or have carried are Gold-Dot's and Golden Sabers.

AZ: I too have decided to stock up on mk318. It as either that or TSX, and the mk318 is FAR cheaper to stock up on. Seems to be a good all around load. Though, I still stayed loaded with 75gr TAP for use in the house.

[AZ Hawk]

For whatever Reason, Winchester tries to limit sales of Ranger-T to law enforcement. So I guess they decided to make a "civilian" version. Only difference between PDX1 and Ranger-T are the sharp "Talons". The ones on the PDX1 seem to stay tucked in instead of expand. I used to carry Ranger-T 230gr +P (non bonded) after seeing a bunch of bare gel tests. But once I started seeing it's performance in 4 layers of denim.... :( They almost never expanded. I switched to DPX, which has consistent deep penetration and expansion. Other rounds I'd carry or have carried are Gold-Dot's and Golden Sabers.

AZ: I too have decided to stock up on mk318. It as either that or TSX, and the mk318 is FAR cheaper to stock up on. Seems to be a good all around load. Though, I still stayed loaded with 75gr TAP for use in the house.

I carry the 95 gr. PDX1 in my S&W Bodyguard .380 as the testing I've seen has been VERY impressive. 11.5" of penetration through denim covered gelatin and 0.70" avg. expansion. Bare gelatin testing has been very similar, which implies a very well made bullet as denim testing is supposed to showcase the worst case scenario of a given bullet.

And I agree RKM, the TSX is far to expensive to stock up on.