Sixto's patrol rifle update

This is a discussion on Sixto's patrol rifle update within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by jonconsiglio I prefer a 14.5" to a 16" even if pinned. OK... why? My theory is both will be 16" anyway, why ...

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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I prefer a 14.5" to a 16" even if pinned.
    OK... why? My theory is both will be 16" anyway, why not take advantage of the extra barrel length?
    "Just blame Sixto"

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  3. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    OK... why? My theory is both will be 16" anyway, why not take advantage of the extra barrel length?
    Not sure why that's such a common misconception about the length. The best way I can explain the length comparison would be a 16" and a 14.7", both using an A2 flash hider with the 14.7" being permanently attached. So, adding an A2 to both lengths saves you almost 1.5". Using a 14.5" and pinning an A2x is basically the same as adding a standard A2 to a 14.7". So, instead of a 1.5" difference, you're looking at roughly a 1.3" difference. If you run a suppressor (besides a Halo or NT4) the muzzle device will be longer than an A2 so the difference will be back to 1.5". If you live in a ban state, you have to pin your brake (no flash hiders) anyway and almost all brakes will make a 14.5" legal.

    The velocity difference is small at those lengths. 1" makes a considerable difference between 10.5" and 11.5", but not as much of difference with 14.5" to 16". With 75gr TAP, for example, the distance where it's pretty much guaranteed to fragment at its max is maybe a 30 yard difference. Between 10.5" and 16", it's something like a 130 yard difference or a little more. With TSX, it's really not a concern since we're looking at only a couple yard difference at distances around 350 or 400 yards for max performance.

    Now, this is all personal preference at this point as to which we all prefer. For me, a 14.5" set up exactly the same as a 16" will handle slightly better and will be as accurate and in some cases more accurate, all else being equal. There's also difference in the feel of the rifles due to the gas systems and how they relate to barrel length. All else being equal, a 14.5" will be slightly smoother operating.

    The difference between the two is small. Small enough that most shooters won't really notice a difference unless side by side, and even then they might not. For a small percentage of shooters, they're at a point where they're looking for every tiny advantage they can get to dial them in even more. If someone who shoots once in a while picks up to different ARs, there will likely be no difference in their performance. if a truly tuned in shooter picks up two different ARs (like the 14.5" and 16"), there's a good chance they'll notice a difference and one of the two rifles will perform better for them.

    It gets to a point where there are no more big differences and we start looking at a 5% difference instead of a 20% difference. For me personally, that 5% advantage is a 14.5" for a general use rifle. For others, it may be the 16". It's not a huge difference, but it's there and I perform slightly better due to that differences.

    All that being said, you could hand me the finest golf clubs ever made or a couple 2x4's and there wouldn't any noticeable difference in my performance!
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  4. #198
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I don't understand why the forum keeps merging my paragraphs??

    Edit - it looks like I got them separated..

    Edit 2 - Someone once came up with the differences in terms of the force needed to raise the weapon from a low ready and how that applies to transitioning to multiple targets. It was very interesting and I should probably look for it.

    Again, it's a small difference, but it's just one more little thing that eventually adds up.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  5. #199
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    OK... let me chew on that for a while.

    But I like the idea of doing a 11.5"... I'm diggin the BCM lightweight 11.5 upper.
    Last edited by SIXTO; December 16th, 2011 at 01:01 PM.
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  6. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    OK... let me chew on that for a while. But I like the idea of doing a 11.5"... I'm diggin the BCM lightweight 11.5 upper.
    Maybe people are forgetting that a 16" barrel is really closer to 17.5" with an A2 flash hider and barrels are measure to the muzzle, not the muzzle device. I don't know.

    Anyway, the 11.5" is a nice length. They're reliable and add almost an additional 40% to the distance that TAP still fragments at its maximum. Since I have a 10.5", my next SBR is a 12.5". A couple guys I know from classes and m4carbine run 11.5" guns with the KAC URX II rails. That's probably my favorite 11.5" set up as it's light and feels great in hand.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  7. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Not sure why that's such a common misconception about the length. The best way I can explain the length comparison would be a 16" and a 14.7", both using an A2 flash hider with the 14.7" being permanently attached. So, adding an A2 to both lengths saves you almost 1.5". Using a 14.5" and pinning an A2x is basically the same as adding a standard A2 to a 14.7". So, instead of a 1.5" difference, you're looking at roughly a 1.3" difference. If you run a suppressor (besides a Halo or NT4) the muzzle device will be longer than an A2 so the difference will be back to 1.5". If you live in a ban state, you have to pin your brake (no flash hiders) anyway and almost all brakes will make a 14.5" legal.

    The velocity difference is small at those lengths. 1" makes a considerable difference between 10.5" and 11.5", but not as much of difference with 14.5" to 16". With 75gr TAP, for example, the distance where it's pretty much guaranteed to fragment at its max is maybe a 30 yard difference. Between 10.5" and 16", it's something like a 130 yard difference or a little more. With TSX, it's really not a concern since we're looking at only a couple yard difference at distances around 350 or 400 yards for max performance.

    Now, this is all personal preference at this point as to which we all prefer. For me, a 14.5" set up exactly the same as a 16" will handle slightly better and will be as accurate and in some cases more accurate, all else being equal. There's also difference in the feel of the rifles due to the gas systems and how they relate to barrel length. All else being equal, a 14.5" will be slightly smoother operating.

    The difference between the two is small. Small enough that most shooters won't really notice a difference unless side by side, and even then they might not. For a small percentage of shooters, they're at a point where they're looking for every tiny advantage they can get to dial them in even more. If someone who shoots once in a while picks up to different ARs, there will likely be no difference in their performance. if a truly tuned in shooter picks up two different ARs (like the 14.5" and 16"), there's a good chance they'll notice a difference and one of the two rifles will perform better for them.

    It gets to a point where there are no more big differences and we start looking at a 5% difference instead of a 20% difference. For me personally, that 5% advantage is a 14.5" for a general use rifle. For others, it may be the 16". It's not a huge difference, but it's there and I perform slightly better due to that differences.

    All that being said, you could hand me the finest golf clubs ever made or a couple 2x4's and there wouldn't any noticeable difference in my performance!
    That debate was going to come up when I do a build in the not too distant future, thanks for explaining it here.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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  8. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    OK... why? My theory is both will be 16" anyway, why not take advantage of the extra barrel length?
    Not sure if Jon covered it in his post, don't have time to read it right now. Or maybe somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. A 14.5" (with no NFA paper work) will have a permanently fixed flash hider to make it 16" and 16" barrels are 16" without the hider so it's really probably 17.5" total barrel length including the hider. So the 14.5's are still 1.5" shorter either way.

    I'd love an SBR, just can't justify the money spent on one right now. Maybe someday if I ever have the money to play with.

  9. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    Not sure if Jon covered it in his post, don't have time to read it right now. Or maybe somebody can correct me if I'm wrong. A 14.5" (with no NFA paper work) will have a permanently fixed flash hider to make it 16" and 16" barrels are 16" without the hider so it's really probably 17.5" total barrel length including the hider. So the 14.5's are still 1.5" shorter either way.I'd love an SBR, just can't justify the money spent on one right now. Maybe someday if I ever have the money to play with.
    That's correct. If you use an A2x on the 14.5", it's more like 1.3", but same difference. The A2x flash hider is only about 1/4" longer. Looking at an A2, if you take that small rim at the front and double it, that's the length of the A2x to make a 14.5" legal.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  10. #204
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    Well, it's been shot- not much to report other than everything functioned fine. I used all kinds of 223 and 5.56 I had laying around. Now to sight in and see what it can do...
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Well, it's been shot- not much to report other than everything functioned fine. I used all kinds of 223 and 5.56 I had laying around. Now to sight in and see what it can do...


    I still don't even have an upper ordered.

    I'm currently squishing your head with my fingers in disgust.
    jonconsiglio and atctimmy like this.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  12. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post


    I still don't even have an upper ordered.

    I'm currently squishing your head with my fingers in disgust.
    Hey... its taken me how long to get mine done? Almost an entire year. Granted, a lot was my procrastination and indecisiveness, but I don't like rushing things and spending money on bad ideas.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Hey... its taken me how long to get mine done? Almost an entire year. Granted, a lot was my procrastination and indecisiveness, but I don't like rushing things and spending money on bad ideas.
    That's why we have Jon. Then when the rifle goes tango uniform, or shoots like a BB gun with a .19 bore, we can blame him.

    Besides, I have never shot an AR so I didn't know what I wanted other than reliable, long LOP, and 1 MOA capable. I had the easy route. Find the guys that have the experience, suck their brains for the knowledge, make a shopping list, and hemorrhage my checking account (Anybody have some Quick Clot or Celox?)
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  14. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Well, it's been shot- not much to report other than everything functioned fine. I used all kinds of 223 and 5.56 I had laying around. Now to sight in and see what it can do...
    That might be the most hyped up, worst range report I have ever seen on here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye .45 View Post
    That might be the most hyped up, worst range report I have ever seen on here.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  16. #210
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    I seem to have misplaced my ban button
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