Sixto's patrol rifle update

This is a discussion on Sixto's patrol rifle update within the Defensive Rifles & Shotgun Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Hmmm.... I prefer 30 round mags for prone as I'm usually only in that position for a short time and use my magazine as a ...

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  1. #121
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Hmmm.... I prefer 30 round mags for prone as I'm usually only in that position for a short time and use my magazine as a rest. If I need to get lower than that, I roll to my side. I like 20 round mags, but I've never found them to be utterly reliable and I as well as a number of people I know have had issue with 20 round Pmags.

    To each his own... For my shooting style, the longer 30 round mags are a benefit but I can understand where some prefer the 20 round mags for prone shooting.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Hmmm.... I prefer 30 round mags for prone as I'm usually only in that position for a short time and use my magazine as a rest. If I need to get lower than that, I roll to my side. I like 20 round mags, but I've never found them to be utterly reliable and I as well as a number of people I know have had issue with 20 round Pmags.

    To each his own... For my shooting style, the longer 30 round mags are a benefit but I can understand where some prefer the 20 round mags for prone shooting.
    Just a note on that, it is generally bad ju-ju to use the mag as a rest while in the prone position, and is frowned upon.

    The extra pressure on the bottom of the mag can push it higher into the magwell, and cause malfunctions.

    A proper prone position sans bipod should have the weapon slightly off the ground too.

    Just my $0.02
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  4. #123
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Yes, and racking a shotgun will have bad guys running like the wind! I understand and have heard it all before, but when Vickers, Howe, Costa, the guys from LMS, the guys from Tiger Swan all say it's BS, I tend to accept that. Plus, the thousands of rounds I have after smashing my mags into the dirt for a quick string has me accepting the method.

    Worst case, if a mag should fail, that's an indication of a bad mag. As a matter of fact, many guys including myself suggest doing this to test out new mags and scrap them if they fail.

    Again, to each his own.

    The Army still teaches SPORTS as well, and most of us know there's a few wasted steps. Also remember, a lot of people used to think a Magellan grip on an M4 was a good idea and you also didn't need lube.

    EDIT - forgot a few... Ethan Johns, Travis Haley, Pat Rogers, Jason Falla, Kyle Lamb, Kyle Defoor, Mike Pannone...... ;)
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    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  5. #124
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Actually, we need to start a poll n a separate thread on this. I can't tell you how many times someone has told me this but when I ask they can't tell me of a single instance where this has actually caused a malfunction...other than magazine related. A buddy slammed his on the ground and when the bolt cycled it forced a bunch of rounds into the receiver. This had to do with crazy wide feed lips over military recycling of expendable magazines.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Yes, and racking a shotgun will have bad guys running like the wind! I understand and have heard it all before, but when Vickers, Howe, Costa, the guys from LMS, the guys from Tiger Swan all say it's BS, I tend to accept that. Plus, the thousands of rounds I have after smashing my mags into the dirt for a quick string has me accepting the method.

    Worst case, if a mag should fail, that's an indication of a bad mag. As a matter of fact, many guys including myself suggest doing this to test out new mags and scrap them if they fail.

    Again, to each his own.

    The Army still teaches SPORTS as well, and most of us know there's a few wasted steps.
    Don't get me started on Army marksmanship/weapons training. I got to work with some of them in country, and it was interesting, that is all I will say.

    If it works for you, then I guess go ahead and do it. I am just going off what I was trained, and my experiences. And I have seen Marines have malfunctions from that on dynamic ranges, generally double feeds. As well as seen a Marine crack his mag on a rock, and bust off the baseplate on his mag (In all fairness there, I was issued more than 1 GI mag that only had 3 prongs holding on the baseplate, so the odds were the mag was already defective.

    Not to mention that with the full kit and kaboodle infantrymen have to wear, generally we couldn't get low enough to get a proper cheek-weld if you try shooting like that. Proper utilization of microterrain features means you can have the rifle up a bit, into a more proper prone hold.

    Once again, if it works for you, great, by all means, have at it. I am joe-schmoe on the internet and for all you know, the closest I could of been to the middle east is MW3, not a world renowned firearms trainer. But I still think that method opens up the door to too many bad possibilities that can be easily avoided. And Mr. Murphy tends to be drawn to firefights, where he likes to make his presence known.

    I guess on this point we are just going to disagree Jon, as you said, to each his own.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  7. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Actually, we need to start a poll n a separate thread on this. I can't tell you how many times someone has told me this but when I ask they can't tell me of a single instance where this has actually caused a malfunction...other than magazine related. A buddy slammed his on the ground and when the bolt cycled it forced a bunch of rounds into the receiver. This had to do with crazy wide feed lips over military recycling of expendable magazines.
    I've had some mag issues as a result of it, mag bottoms getting beat to hell and floor plates coming off, but that was all with GI mags the Pmag design is a little more robust when it comes to the bottom of the mag.

  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Actually, we need to start a poll n a separate thread on this. I can't tell you how many times someone has told me this but when I ask they can't tell me of a single instance where this has actually caused a malfunction...other than magazine related. A buddy slammed his on the ground and when the bolt cycled it forced a bunch of rounds into the receiver. This had to do with crazy wide feed lips over military recycling of expendable magazines.
    See, the thing about it, is that I think with quality mags, it really isn't as big of an issue as people say, but it is more of something that exacerbates problems when there is a bad magazine. I have seen that too, where it feed multiple rounds. OR I saw mags with the old, old black followers that would tilt when they were hit on something, and then not feed. Or like I said, the one guy who busted off his baseplate, which was probably already questionable at best.

    But my thought process is to prepare for the worst. If I am ever using a M-16/AR variant again in my life for a defensive purpose, it probably means that there is a lot going wrong in the world. I may not be able to be as selective about the mags I use as I am right now. Crap happens, bottom line. So I don't want to get in a habit that can compound issues at a time when I need things to run correctly. If the only mags I have are ones I can find, they probably won't all be P-mags. And in such situations, I know I will revert to training. So if a more "proper" prone position while utilizing micro-terrain gives me a wider chance of success regardless of the mag, that is what I want to train myself for (and what I was trained for and used in real life lethal scenarios).

    The world is often much less perfect than we want it to be, so I generally want to do whatever I can control to increase my odds.


    EDIT: This is very much in line with Marine thinking and training as well. As we get the fewest cents per dollar of any service, and often have to make do with hand-me-downs and recycled equipment. We always liked to boast we were able to "Do more with less." So I can see where some of the divide comes in between Marine infantry training, using hand me down issued gear, and top tier civilian training, where generally the people who can afford that training, have top notch gear.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
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  9. #128
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I hope you guys understand I'm not dogging anyone that does not use the magazine, but Larry Vickers put it best when he asked if we'd rather have two points of contact or three.

    I'm also looking at this from the perspective that I have dozens upon dozens of mags and I'll just toss a bad one. As you said buckeye.45, most failures you've seen were double feeds. I'm sure you know this but for those that don't, there's really only one way to get a double feed and that's by using a worn or bad magazine.

    Now, if I have an already touchy mag and I smack it off of the ground, could I cause more problems? Sure thing. But for me, and most people I know, if we have a mag with an issue, that's it, we toss it or use to induce failures when traning. We don't try to fix it, we don't hope it'll work next time, we throw it away or tape it to identify it.

    Every single mag I train with has been dropped from the magwell to the rocks, mud, dirt or concrete when doing mag changes. When I go to prone, I usually drop straight down and if anything, the muzzle might touch the ground if I'm not careful or the bottom of the mag could hit the ground. Either way, it'll be with less force than it hit with during the mag change.

    I'm not asking anyone to change anything.... But, of you have this problem, take a feedlip gauge to your mags and if they're out of spec, take them out of rotation immediately and wrap them with a piece of bright red or blue tape if you don't want to toss them. If you have this happen with a PMAG, even once, immediately call Magpul and ask for a call tag. Most likely they'll just send the new mag and not bother with a return of the old one. Ask for Dozer (Jimmy Jimenez).

    As long as you're making your hits in the quickest time possible, that's all that matters. But, if you think there's even a 2% chance I'm right, go out there and try it. I'll make a deal with everyone here actually. Go try it and if you have a failure that's not the result of a bad mag, I'll send you a new magazine, GI or PMAG, your choice. If I'm right.....well, we'll think of something!

    EDIT - in line with buckeye.45's post above about Marines and hand me down mags.... If anyone is in the situation, gauge your feed lips. If they're too wide, simply squeeze them together. No, scratch that. If you're in country and are issued junk magazines, PM me and I'll send you a handful of new mags or Magpul upgrade kits if it's not your feed lips.... This is for anyone that's a regular in this subforum, not just anyone that's not a member.... I don't want to have to eat my words on that one like what happened on another forum with some guys just being nice!
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  10. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I hope you guys understand I'm not dogging anyone that does not use the magazine, but Larry Vickers put it best when he asked if we'd rather have two points of contact or three.


    EDIT - in line with buckeye.45's post above about Marines and hand me down mags.... If anyone is in the situation, gauge your feed lips. If they're too wide, simply squeeze them together. No, scratch that. If you're in country and are issued junk magazines, PM me and I'll send you a handful of new mags or Magpul upgrade kits if it's not your feed lips.... This is for anyone that's a regular in this subforum, not just anyone that's not a member.... I don't want to have to eat my words on that one like what happened on another forum with some guys just being nice!
    Nope, I don't think you are dogging anything. I think it is just some enlightened individuals exchanging ideas where our opinions differ slightly. Hopefully you don't think I'm dogging your position either.

    But I have been in a place where my rifle really was my life, and the ability to just scrap a mag and go buy another one was an un-imaginable luxury. So that is obviously going to influence my ideas on the subject. I think it's just kind of different thought processes due to different life experience.

    Like I said, I think it just exacerbates problems with already trouble mags, and having been in a situation where just replacing them was not possible, I tend to want to not do things that can make issues worse.

    Next wanna debate if it is 27, 28 or 30 rounds in a 30 rounds mag?
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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  11. #130
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I stick to 28 baby! even in my PMAGs... Want to get into the new brown followers starting on the opposite side and ending with the 28th round on the left instead of the right..!? Not that it's a big deal, but seriously, why would they do that after all these years!?

    I hear you on the mags and where you were. I know a number of guys that take their own mags with them now or have family ship them out early. I don't know of you're familiar with Paul Gardner or not... He's a member on m4carbine and I talk to him quite a bit. He wrote that article in SWAT about military training and how all military should seek private training if there's any chance of them seeing a fight. Anyway, in the Marines he was taught to always retain his empty mags. he shot two guys during the OIF and when he reloaded his rifle, he was behind concealment and was looking down at his weapon and fooling around trying to get his empty mag in a pouch.

    When he looked up, the 2nd dude he thought he smoked was 20 yards away firing at him with his AK. He's paralyzed from the waist down now. Not anyone's fault, but better training and steady supply of DISPOSABLE mags would definitely have helped. He said he learned more in his first 3 day class (in a wheelchair) than he learned his entire time in the Marines and a lot of what he did learn was just plain wrong or at least very dated.

    Here's the article he wrote

    http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38540
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; November 19th, 2011 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Corrected an error
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  12. #131
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    Sure, I'm interested. I think I have seen some stuff about him before.

    By the time I was in, we had pretty good dump pouches. So mag retention was easier, because of that advancement. Dump pouches certainly weren't issued, and may not of even really been around in the early stages of OIF. MOLLE in general wasn't really used in the Corps then, it was still ALICE clips.

    An extra thought on using the mags as a rest, which is something to consider. While the M-16/AR family is certainly my favored combat rifle long arm, it isn't the only one I own, nor shoot on a regular basis. And there are a lot of other worthy battle rifles that one could take into harms way and be well served.

    But the resting the magazine on the ground technique is really kind of limited to AR-15's with 30 round mags. With an AK it makes or an akward pivot point due to the curve and length of the magazine, and it not nearly as stable. It is too low to be useful at all with my mini-14 with 20 rounders, I just tried it, and 20 rounders really seem preferred for that platform, and more popular. Similarly, the FAL, M-14 and G-3 families all have significantly shorter 20 round magazines that would make it hard to effectively use the weapon if you are used to resting the weapon on a mag.

    The more "proper" (I am using that loosely) prone position, is fully interchangeable between all of those weapons platforms, regardless of mag used. So I would rather practice a technique that allows me to utilize a variety of platforms. Just some food for thought.

    EDIT: I really think this is a strong argument against practicing with that technique. I can go grab any long gun from my safe, lever, bolt or semi rifle, or pump or semi shotgun, and use the same type of prone for everything. Like I said, the AR is my preferred platform, but I like to think of myself as a student of defensive firearms use, and like being at least comfortable if not proficient with with a variety of platforms, because when SHTF, you can't always choose what you have on hand. So, as an ever-learning student of defensive long-arm use, if I can make things more consistent across the board to reduce error, I am a fan of that.

    I do a lot of my best thinking on my porch. Where I am enjoying a nice beverage on this beautiful evening, hence all the edits.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
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  13. #132
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I hear ya... My SCAR H mags are 20 rounds but have a ranger type plate and they're perfectly flat and great for using when prone. My Barrett's and 700 all have bipods...

    But, each semi auto, for me, will have support at three points. Both elbows and the mag, but I'd the mag is too short, I'm still good. For my precision rifles, they have bipods and only my right arm makes contact. Two have rear monopods. But, with those and even the 7.62 autos, I'm likely getting into a decent shooting position then moving my body to a better situation. With my ARs, t least when training (not hunting as much) I'm dropping quickly to the ground and taking my shots, then I'm up and moving. When working off of a car hood or barricade/wall, etc., I support it with my hand or vert grip and obviously am not resting the mag.

    But, like you said, I can grab any gun and shoot prone is basically the same position (besides the Barretts due to size and weight) and if the magazine is a third point of contact, great, if not, it just doesn't make contact, I'm not ever relying on it as the sole point of contact.

    I don't know. I think if more guys would get to some modern training (not saying you), whether it's from former Delta guys like Vickers, Lamb, Tiger Swan or a civilian trainer, there eyes would be opened and they'd realize that while much of what they learned before can still work obviously, there are many better techniques that will get the same end result we're all going for, just quicker and more consistently. Since almost all current instructors, military, LE or civilian are teaching the magazine rest for a quick prone, I think if you give it a solid month or two, you'll see the light!

    As for the link, I posted it above when I edited my post. It's a good read and he's a cool dude.

    I'm on the porch too, that's pretty funny!

    EDIT - Sorry Sixto.... Don't mean to derail. Well, yeah I do but at least I apologize when I do it!
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  14. #133
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    So when are we all getting together for a weekend shoot?? I have access to over 2,000 acres I can use any time....
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  15. #134
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    I've read that link before, you or someone else posted it on here.

    I seem to recall making comments that a lot of the things he pointed out as the flaws in his training have now been corrected, at least they were in my infantry unit. The thing about rifle tactics and training the Marines, is that now it is rapidly evolving, and passed down through units like treasured heirlooms. I had some leaders who were in the much earlier OIF's, where they and their comrades learned the hard lessons the hard way, like Mr. Gardner unfortunately did. They had been a peacetime force, still for the most part training for Cold War style conflicts. Their only rifle qualification was the traditional known distance range (which is now augmented by tables 1-2, which is much more combat oriented, a lot less competition style), and the infantry has up through table 4, which gets semi-advanced.

    So by the time I was in and deployed, Iraq had been going on for 5 years, Afghanistan for 7. There was a whole lot learned at a terrible cost over those years. And the things that worked and made sense were passed down from squad and fire team leaders, to newer Marines, who on their next deployment were the squad and team leaders, far before any official change in doctrine came. And by the time I had done my two deployments and was focused on training younger Marines, even more new ideas and techniques had been proven overseas, and were passed down.

    It is a more informal way of doing things, but basically we take what works, and that is what gets passed down. And I think it served me and my fellow Marines quite well. I felt good with the level of knowledge I was able to pass onto the new guys before they went back over there.

    I would of loved to have taken more advanced courses while in, but that was impossible with our op tempo, and the limited funds available to a junior enlisted person. But it is still on my list of things to do.

    Personally, I still don't think I will be using the mag to provide a third point from prone. But generally I am a firm believe in using whatever is available to make a positions more stable. Utilizing barricades, handrests, something under the forearm, whatever.

    Just remember when you are dropping, popping rounds, and then getting up again. Fire without movement is stupid, movement without fire is suicide.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
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  16. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    So when are we all getting together for a weekend shoot?? I have access to over 2,000 acres I can use any time....
    Some of us don't make the big bucks. But if I am ever headed to Texas, I'll let you know.

    SIXTO, this isn't getting too off topic for you, is it? You haven't posted pics of the updated rifle yet, so we gotta do something to keep this thread alive.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
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